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RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 8:26:38 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Yeah, let's just go and violate the Geneva Convention: it's so much fun to torture innocent people just because it feels good.  Non-consensual total power exchange for all  .

The soldiers involved in the appalling Abu Ghraib scandal have gone to jail. Lynddie England didn't get three years for nothing... Abu Ghraib won't go down in history as yet another shining example of American glory. They held children up there. Rumsfeld deserves to be smeared in shit.

As for Guantanamo... shame on those that support barbarism and illegal imprisonment in the name of 'freedom'.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 8:49:59 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yeah, let's just go and violate the Geneva Convention: it's so much fun to torture innocent people just because it feels good.  Non-consensual total power exchange for all  .

The soldiers involved in the appalling Abu Ghraib scandal have gone to jail. Lynddie England didn't get three years for nothing... Abu Ghraib won't go down in history as yet another shining example of American glory. They held children up there. Rumsfeld deserves to be smeared in shit.

As for Guantanamo... shame on those that support barbarism and illegal imprisonment in the name of 'freedom'.


The fact that they went to jail makes your point meaningless.

Although your reply doesn't address those who produced and stared in the Armstrong video; speaks to your agenda as well as your definition of "innocent people".

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 9:39:39 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Ok this has NOTHING to do with Abu Graib, Gitmo, etc... It is about SEDATING ILLEGAL ALIENS BEING DEPORTED BEFORE LOADING THEM ON AN AIRCRAFT.

Qouting directly from the story:

In a Chicago holding cell early one evening in February 2006, five guards piled on top of a 49-year-old man who was angry he was going back to Ecuador, according to a nurse's account in his deportation file. As they pinned him down so the nurse could punch a needle through his coveralls into his right buttock, one officer stood over him menacingly and taunted, "Nighty-night." Such episodes are among more than 250 cases The Washington Post has identified in which the government has, without medical reason, given drugs meant to treat serious psychiatric disorders to people it has shipped out of the United States since 2003 -- the year the Bush administration handed the job of deportation to the Department of Homeland Security's new Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, known as ICE.
 
Now if this guy is so fucking pissed off about going back to Ecuador that it takes FIVE PRISON GUARDS TO HOLD HIM DOWN I dont want to be wrestling with the motherfucker in the cockpit while Im trying to shoot the the ILS approach into Quito and Im damn sure that the pilots working for or chartered by ICE dont either. The title of the story is Detainees drugged against their will for deportation not "Mean National Guard Girls From West Virginia".

Not to be a bastard BUT we are NOT going to their countries and drugging them, they are coming HERE illegally. When they are deported -we are having a NURSE, administer a sedative prescribed by a DOCTOR (nurses cant dispense drugs without an order) prior to loading them on an aircraft against their will to take them someplace they do not want to go back to. Ever really looked at a cockpit door? Despite the 9-11 beef ups (which are a joke) if some seriously pissed off person wants in HE WILL GET THROUGH THAT DOOR where he will find two (or three) relatively helpless men STRAPPED DOWN with seatbelts and shoulder harnesses barely able to turn around to get reach for a cup of coffee being handed to them. They are surrounded by critical controls which cannot be bumped or slammed etc. NOT A GOOD PLACE FOR A WRESTLING MATCH!!!! If it took five CO's to handle the guy what the fuck do you expect two pilots strapped in their little cubby holes while trying to fly the aircraft to do?

Would you like the deportees drugged or dead? Because if they get through that cockpit door it is highly likely everyone on the aircraft , deportees, flight crew, and CO's alike will die - plus it just may slam into a residential neighborhood maybe even an elementary school! Would you like say 2 dead pilots 4 dead flight attendants 8 or 10 dead ICE agents 200 dead deportees and maybe 600 dead kids on the ground or some illegal alien TEMPORARILY DRUGGED DURING FLIGHT who will be just fine in a few hours?

Jesus Christ - they arent having their arms and legs amputated they are being sedated for transport aboard an aircraft. Frankly, it is up to the PILOT anyway. There are two regulations - one stating that the pilot in command is the final authority for all issues regarding the safety of the flight and the other saying the pilot in command MUST deny carriage to any person he or she deems a hazard.  So the agents are doing what they need to do to get the deportee boarded - otherwise the pilot can and legally MUST say "oh no, you arent bringing THAT on my aircraft behaving that way.... Boarding denied!"  

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 11:14:50 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Aviator is right.
And if it were me I'd put them in a C-130 with parachutes on and push them out the back.
And no "box lunch" with baloney sandwhiches!

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 11:28:25 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol   haldol- here it does say "hyperactivity".

if THIS is the policy- then it needs to be CLEARLY spelled out.  I see nothing in the link in regards to a DR ordering it.

which leads to another question, are we sending a bill to the recieving country for the flight?!!  we should be. if soemone is so uncontrollable ship them by bus then barge to Cuba and let them handle it.  Or let the said countries arrange and pay for return transport.

I worked 5 years in group homes for MR/MH,   this is not the answere.


< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 5/15/2008 11:30:58 AM >

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 11:49:53 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol   haldol- here it does say "hyperactivity".

if THIS is the policy- then it needs to be CLEARLY spelled out.  I see nothing in the link in regards to a DR ordering it.

which leads to another question, are we sending a bill to the recieving country for the flight?!!  we should be. if soemone is so uncontrollable ship them by bus then barge to Cuba and let them handle it.  Or let the said countries arrange and pay for return transport.

I worked 5 years in group homes for MR/MH,   this is not the answere.



PaHunk, "Clearly spelled out" , to who?
And for what purpose?
These aren't tourist flights these are people who have committed federal felonies and violated U.S. laws.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 12:13:03 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Valium would be a better choice.   Hand out valium.  1 to you, 2 to me.  1 to him, 2 to me. 1 to her, 5 to me.  1 to that guy, 4 to me.


;-0

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 5:03:58 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Abu Graib, to be precise.


Is that near Abu Ghraib..... to be precise.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 5:18:56 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Oooooooooooops.

(Why does it feel so good to be found out to be wrong  ?)

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 7:24:58 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I really do not think anyone read the entire article.

If the article is factual, then ICE is actually breaking their own rules, and it is pretty abusive just to drug someone with these "cocktails" because they are upset. Plenty of restraint devices that can keep them from causing harm.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/15/2008 8:19:45 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I really do not think anyone read the entire article.

If the article is factual, then ICE is actually breaking their own rules, and it is pretty abusive just to drug someone with these "cocktails" because they are upset. Plenty of restraint devices that can keep them from causing harm.


Those restraint devices CAN NOT be used on an aircraft in flight. Carriage of persons, including prisoners is covered in minute detail under 14 USC Parts 91. 108, 135, and 121... If those restraint devices were used they would be unable to evacuate the aircraft in the event of a accident or incident - or to respond properly in the event of a loss of cabin pressurization.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 1:35:35 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		It seems silly to think that they worry about transportation rules, considering the destination.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 3:02:46 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		My brother worked in deportations from the UK for a while before he got into the immigration service.

The great and wise government here decided it was something suitable to subcontract out. Hence, my brother was driving a minibus - just an ordinary minibus albeit with a grille between the driving compartment and the passengers, to go around the country and pick people up from homes they'd made in the UK, to take for deportation. No guns, no cuffs, no pepper spray, no truncheon, no body armour - nothing by which to defend himself or subdue an unwilling passenger - and no police assistance either unless it was called upon.

My brother feared for his life at times - on those occasions they were to phone the police, by which time any unwilling passenger would have escaped; getting beaten up or killed for those wages just not worth it.

But generally, things passed off without incident; a lot more tears than anything else and my brother would treat them to McDonalds before reaching the deportation centre - he had to stop for lunch somewhere and what was he meant to do? Eat in front of them? Overall, I would say he handled it very well albeit that he hated every moment of it and pitied these people more than anything.

What might happen next I have no idea. He dropped them off at deportation centres. Someone else's job to get them on the plane.

E

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 5:28:58 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

It seems silly to think that they worry about transportation rules, considering the destination.


The "destination" is THEIR HOME COUNTRY not some torture chamber or firing squad. (Though many of these deportees will get, and fully deserve some type of date with their local penal systems.

Remember the article refers to TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY DEPORTEES. We deport thousands and thousands per year. Many, such as the Mexicans compliantly hop onto the bus and get returned home only to come back next month. No drug cocktail, no manhandling, etc....

Frankly, as Popeye said "these are federal felons". Ill be blunt - its reasonably difficult to get deported in the USA. Look at out illegal alien population here in Houston. Most go through life blissfully - staying under the radar cleaning houses, doing daywork like painting, drywall, etc. mowing lawns basically doing all the low paying menial service jobs that even American teenagers consider themselves "too good for". Some of them however FUCK UP. They join gangs, start whoring, pimping or dealing, get pulled over driving with fake plates, no license and no insurance, and otherwise find themselves in the criminal justice system at which point they are no longer "under the radar" and AFTER A HEARING BEFORE A JUDGE they are ordered deported. Most will go quietly, and do go quietly.

Some REALLY do not want to go back home - because they are already criminals there, escaped cons, walk away parolees. enemies of the state, revolutionaries, terrorists in their own country (like the south africans who committed the church street massacre), or other misscellanious and assorted dogshit who know that when they get home well its gonna be a reenactment of that movie "Midnight Express". THOSE deportees - 250 out of THOUSANDS, the HIGH RISK ones, are medically sedated for the safety of the flight crew and their fellow passengers. They arent wrestling down and drugging little blonde Swedish college students who took a job at mcDonalds on a student visa. (Which doesnt allow employment) Such a person would probably wouldnt be deported anyway but if they were they would simply be walked to a commercial airliner going on a non stop flight to Sweden and given to the custody of a flight crew member. Ie they would be flown unescorted , much less drugged or restrained. By comparioson the dangerous motherfucker who is some kind of heavy duty felon - rapist, killer, drug smuggler, gang member, here and who probably has a similar laundry list of charges awaiting at home is going to get classified high risk and sedated for transport. Its a function of what they have to lose... Take that Marine who slaughtered the pregnant Marine and burned her in his backyard - do you think he would resist as hes returned to the US? Probably - so I wouldnt blame the Mexican authorities, or our own, at all if they drugged him for repatriation.

Would you want Charlie Manson drugged if you had to fly in an airplane with him? Be honest people and forget the human rights drivel cause there are a lot of homo sapiens walking around who arent human. If you had to spend eight hours in a flying pressure vessel with Charlie Manson, Timothy McVeigh, Jeffrey Dahlmer, Osama Bin Laden, Carlos Guerra, Andrew Luster, John Gacy, a half a dozen members of MS-13, three child molesters, two serial rapists, and a cannibal would YOU want them drugged?

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 6:02:41 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I know one thing: I wouldn't like to be a passenger in a plane you were piloting.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 6:08:39 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Well it seems the washington post link no longer works, because I wanted to pull some more excerpts from it. ICE originally had denied the extent they have been using their cocktails. They had drugged many people, that according to their records, they had not displayed aggressive behavior just that they felt it were possible, including females that were not very large. Comments made by the ICE personel, as recorded by the nurse in charge of being with them during the flight, seemed to indicate that it was often done in a vindictive fashion. Because of these problems ICE had established a procedure that required a Medical order be obtained based upon current behavior and/or psychiatric issues, before this cocktail should be administered. There are also many other drugs that could be used to help calm these people, during transportation. The full article I read while I was just in Washington, DC, mentioned that there were even exception to restraints that could be used, as per rules of transporting possibly dangerous prisoners, that would have been less abusive.

Yes I see where there are instances they need to do this, my problem is a checks and balance system to the rules and procedures that ICE says it has in place to prevent this from occuring. It is a mandate of the people to keep their government in check.

I tried a search and only found the shortened story from the Post. If anyone finds a link to the full article could you please post it.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 6:16:09 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		You paint all of these detainees the same to justify the action, when in fact some were just turned down for asylum.

" ICE has stepped up the arrest and removal of foreigners who are in the United States illegally, who have been turned down for asylum or have been convicted of a crime in the past, the Post reported. "

And I would love to find the full story as it recounts the case of one woman who was emotional distraught, but really did not pose a threat that a couple of people could not have easily restrained her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

It seems silly to think that they worry about transportation rules, considering the destination.


The "destination" is THEIR HOME COUNTRY not some torture chamber or firing squad. (Though many of these deportees will get, and fully deserve some type of date with their local penal systems.

Remember the article refers to TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY DEPORTEES. We deport thousands and thousands per year. Many, such as the Mexicans compliantly hop onto the bus and get returned home only to come back next month. No drug cocktail, no manhandling, etc....

Frankly, as Popeye said "these are federal felons". Ill be blunt - its reasonably difficult to get deported in the USA. Look at out illegal alien population here in Houston. Most go through life blissfully - staying under the radar cleaning houses, doing daywork like painting, drywall, etc. mowing lawns basically doing all the low paying menial service jobs that even American teenagers consider themselves "too good for". Some of them however FUCK UP. They join gangs, start whoring, pimping or dealing, get pulled over driving with fake plates, no license and no insurance, and otherwise find themselves in the criminal justice system at which point they are no longer "under the radar" and AFTER A HEARING BEFORE A JUDGE they are ordered deported. Most will go quietly, and do go quietly.

Some REALLY do not want to go back home - because they are already criminals there, escaped cons, walk away parolees. enemies of the state, revolutionaries, terrorists in their own country (like the south africans who committed the church street massacre), or other misscellanious and assorted dogshit who know that when they get home well its gonna be a reenactment of that movie "Midnight Express". THOSE deportees - 250 out of THOUSANDS, the HIGH RISK ones, are medically sedated for the safety of the flight crew and their fellow passengers. They arent wrestling down and drugging little blonde Swedish college students who took a job at mcDonalds on a student visa. (Which doesnt allow employment) Such a person would probably wouldnt be deported anyway but if they were they would simply be walked to a commercial airliner going on a non stop flight to Sweden and given to the custody of a flight crew member. Ie they would be flown unescorted , much less drugged or restrained. By comparioson the dangerous motherfucker who is some kind of heavy duty felon - rapist, killer, drug smuggler, gang member, here and who probably has a similar laundry list of charges awaiting at home is going to get classified high risk and sedated for transport. Its a function of what they have to lose... Take that Marine who slaughtered the pregnant Marine and burned her in his backyard - do you think he would resist as hes returned to the US? Probably - so I wouldnt blame the Mexican authorities, or our own, at all if they drugged him for repatriation.

Would you want Charlie Manson drugged if you had to fly in an airplane with him? Be honest people and forget the human rights drivel cause there are a lot of homo sapiens walking around who arent human. If you had to spend eight hours in a flying pressure vessel with Charlie Manson, Timothy McVeigh, Jeffrey Dahlmer, Osama Bin Laden, Carlos Guerra, Andrew Luster, John Gacy, a half a dozen members of MS-13, three child molesters, two serial rapists, and a cannibal would YOU want them drugged?


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 7:25:50 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The full article I read while I was just in Washington, DC, mentioned that there were even exception to restraints that could be used, as per rules of transporting possibly dangerous prisoners, that would have been less abusive.


Orion, with due respect I dont care what the article says. As usual the media is fucking up if they said that THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. There are rules on this.... Specifically under 14 USC Parts 91, 108, 121, and 135.  In fact WHO is dangerous is defined by law - specifically 108.221

"b) For the purpose of this section:
   (1) High risk prisoner means a prisoner who is an exceptional escape
risk, as determined by the law enforcement agency, and charged with, or
convicted of, a violent crime."
(2) Low risk prisoner means any prisoner who has not been designated
as ``high risk.''

Ok that means that if Mr. Violent Criminal - ie arrested here for a violent crime, or behaved badly in custody such as NEEDING TO BE WRESTLED DOWN BY FIVE CO's (Five counts of assault on a corrections officer right there, plus five resisting arrest) then his little ass is a "High Risk Prisoner" and the "High Risk" rules apply.

Each law enforcement officer escorting a prisoner and each
aircraft operator shall ensure that the prisoner is restrained from full
use of his or her hands by an appropriate device that provides for
minimum movement of the prisoner's hands, and shall ensure that leg
irons are not used.  
 
There are some more involved rules contained in advisory circulars etc but those are for obvious reasons restricted distribution documents that the general public (including reporters) cannot know. (Like where the AX is kept on the airline... Yes they took your nail file but there is an ax on the plane... You dont know where it is, the Washington Post doesnt know where it is - but I do and so does every Airline Pilot, Airline Dispatcher, Flight Attendant, and aircraft mechanic and its gonna stay that way....

A sedated person under medical care is legal to carry, a person in restraints is not, PERIOD The Washinton Post and its reporters can feel whatever it wants BUT it all comes down to the "its your ass rule"

ยง 91.3   Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
 
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

Period. Unless the pilot in command approves and feels the flight can be safely completed and that all rules are being complied with IT SIMPLY DOESNT HAPPEN.

The rules MUST be complied with, if they are not then they take your airman's certificate and its bye bye nice house, bye bye Corvette, bye bye girlfriends young enough to be your daughter, bye bye 53 hour work MONTH for more money than a neurosurgeon makes.... I have no desire to give up my well earned comfortable lifestyle to become a stockboy at HEB because I feel sorry for some illegal alien getting shot up with something that I PAY my dentist to shoot me up with! Ok I had IV sedation for my root canals and it was worth every penny!

Why should I give a shit if some illegal alien gets high at tax payer expense for a few hours while taking a plane ride out of our country. For christs sake they love drugs anyway - they will rob you for them, kill you for them, etc ITS A FREE FIX whats the problem????

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 7:28:09 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You paint all of these detainees the sgly ame to justify the action, when in fact some were just turned down for asylum.

" ICE has stepped up the arrest and removal of foreigners who are in the United States illegally, who have been turned down for asylum or have been convicted of a crime in the past, the Post reported. "

And I would love to find the full story as it recounts the case of one woman who was emotional distraught, but really did not pose a threat that a couple of people could not have easily restrained her.



Here is the full story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/immigration/cwc_d4p1.html



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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: US drugged detainees - 5/16/2008 7:29:44 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
Why should I give a shit if some illegal alien gets high at tax payer expense for a few hours while taking a plane ride out of our country. For christs sake they love drugs anyway - they will rob you for them, kill you for them, etc ITS A FREE FIX whats the problem????




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Profile   Post #: 40
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