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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:13:43 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
But surely you agree that consent is either consent or not?


I know that I can't agree with that. There are a lot of variables involved in consent.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:13:50 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Status: offline 		Risk awareness is what we use,while never trying to damage anyone ,our play is xxxxxxxtreamx and those that serve are aware of the risks involved...We aren't for the meek nor weak smile..Care is taken but you can never be sure that damage won't happen...Just a note to add those that seek us out are into the extream..bounty

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:14:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

I'd say consensual should be a factor... but I've always preferred RACK to SSC. Safe and sane can get so... boring. By my definition, at least.


Could you please expand on the ins and outs of RACK? I know what the letters stand for and what it means in theory - but would like some feedback on how its actually applied and the difference in application vs SSC?

E

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:16:00 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
But surely you agree that consent is either consent or not?


I know that I can't agree with that. There are a lot of variables involved in consent.


what variables, would you say?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:18:11 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


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quote:


Thereby directing police attention away from people who are in consensual relationships/ participate in consensual activities and towards a focus on those who are a problem for us and for the law.

I think even your own words sums it up, without dragging the concepts of safe or sane into the picture.

Some people follow RACK instead of SSC, you know? 

Hell, when I first was formally introduced to the lifestyle, by a female submissive friend, she went off on a rant about SSC, how stupid it was.   Hell the people that came up with SSC, never attempted to define what exactly is Safe, Sane, or even Consentual.    Here's a link to some history http://www.leatherleadership.org/library/safesanestein.htm

Now, I first learned about SSC.. sometime around 1985-1986 and it was a relately new pill for people to swallow then, and now 20+ years later, many people still ain't swallowing it.  I really don't see it happening 20 more years from now either.



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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:18:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

I even have to disagree about the concent part.  Technically I don't give concent, informed or otherwise with most activities.  But then I have trust in my partner that he's not going to do anything to terribly crazy.


Thanks for this - would you then say that this is a sort of open-ended consent, within roughly known limits?

This of especial importance to those in relationships, more than casual play partners perhaps - but then people in relationships are a sizeable portion of the group at risk from unwarranted police attention on this one.

E

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:20:05 AM   
Dnomyar


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Status: offline 		As you mentioned there are a lot of variables present. So there is no answer to your question. It is all a matter of spin.  

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:25:28 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I can see Safe and Sane as variable Dnomyar. "Risk Aware"  I also see as variable (depends how aware one is).

But Consent - either specific or open ended within limits, this is either Consent or not as far as I see it.

However, the reason for the thread is to gather others' views, not preach my own!

E

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:27:11 AM   
RumpusParable


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

"If it isnt SSC, its not BDSM"


I can't agree.  As already touched on by another, each portion of "SSC" is subjective... taken all together they are Highly subjective.

And frankly, MUCH falls under BDSM that is not safe or sane by the majority's standards... or even many of those involved in BDSM.


But surely you agree that consent is either consent or not?
E


Not in the manner you presented it, no.  Three reasons: 

There are levels and timings of consent in all human interactions, vanilla or BDSM

Things that happen in reality aren't always discussed and measured by the SS portion as you described above before they happen.  Many times two partners will go with the feel of a scene or the over-all structure of their relationship to guide them.  Consent is often, even in relationships of decades, based on how the parties each felt after the fact... even with "vanilla" sex.

The point already made that much of what's being discussed cannot be consented to by current laws.  And again, at least here in the US, consent is often about how someone felt after the fact and how they put themselves into the situation to say "yes" or "no".


I could be slapped or slap someone tomorrow and have it be consentual or not consentual based on situation, timing, my mood, their mood, intentions behind it, how hard it was, if it left a mark, who was around for it, why we were both in the same place, how we knew each other, what we'd eaten or drank, how many were involved, whether I/they were expecting it, if I/they found afterwards I/they enjoyed it or not, and so on... and not in any of those would it be "consentual" by law (at least not here in the US), at best it would be overlooked.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:32:07 AM   
Dnomyar


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Status: offline 		Lady Ellen by all means preach your own. Without different view points these post would be boring.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:32:31 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds
Even if it's not consentual, it's still BDSM.


I'll disagree on this point.  If there is no consent, it's assault.

Cali



Hi Cali,

One can still use BDSM in an assault.  BDSM is an accronym for acts that are done.  On the other hand, healthy D/s and assault are contradictions.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:34:24 AM   
Madame4a


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Status: offline 		for me.. SSC is what I tell people who are not familiar with SM/leather.. bdsm.. whatever term you want...

but other than consent, I don't think much else qualifies as safe or sane to the outside world.. and that's fine with me..

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:35:37 AM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		I'm with the majority of others on safe and sane. I've done some things that were neither, but were consensual.
Now comes the bit where i'm not sure i'm going to make much sense and get my point across correctly so bare with me please.
When in a relationship i consent to His will in every way. That does not mean that i always consent to every activity we do at a specific moment. For instance take the thread on forced sex! If i was arguing with Him and He forced sex upon me in that moment i am not consenting although i do consent over all. Make sense?
To 'nillas' would this be abuse? Quite possibly.
So does everything have to be safe, sane AND consensual to be bdsm, nope i don't think so. It just depends on that moment of non-consent and how you see it.
Hope that made sense

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:41:20 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
But surely you agree that consent is either consent or not?


I know that I can't agree with that. There are a lot of variables involved in consent.


what variables, would you say?

E


Ability of the person to give consent
Age
Information consent is based upon
Experience level
Understanding of what is implied by the consent given
Localities and Laws
Ability to revoke consent

Those are just to name a few. How many times right here on these boards have you seen someone who is clearly incapable of giving consent? Maybe even legally determined to not be able to? How many times have you seen people here who give a "blanket" consent when entering a relationship? Do you really think they have considered all possibilities and if one of those "extreme" possibilities was to actually occur...do you think that consent would hold up in a court of law? (Your Honor, when I gave consent to allow him to do with me as he wished....I didn't think he would really harm me.I heard that all Dom/mes and Masters always have the best interest of their sub/slaves in mind. I read it in black and white on the internet.) How many times have you seen someone who has given consent who has no experience or understanding of what they are consenting to will actually BE like? How many times have you seen someone here who has given consent to something "re-think" that consent or realize after the fact that it was an error to do so? How many 18 year olds are on here with profiles asking to be used and abused and treated like nothing more than meat without any needs....willing to give consent to ANYTHING? Do you think that they REALLY understand the ramifications?

There are so many variables this could go on for days.




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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:42:17 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		The difference between RACK and SSC on some level are simply semantic, "risk aware" is the same as "sane" on some level but I think is a better way of defining "sane" for our purposes.  It speaks to your desire for "fully informed consent".

quote:

  There is for instance, consensual breathplay; the law sees no difference between consensual and non-consensual - its attempted murder regardless. The consent given does not make it any safer nor less criminal.


breathplay is a perfect example of this, if you are aware of the considerable risks of pressure on the neck (and yes, I realize there are many other forms) and someone doesn't die, it is not  attempted murder.   However, if the person dies, it is clearly negligent homicide.  THOSE are the risks for both sides in that activity.

People engage in activities all the time that risk death, look up high school football deaths and injuries!  Skydiving, hang gliding, bungee jumping, scuba diving, rafting, boating, flying, and the list goes on.  BDSM is no different, very little risk but shit happens sometimes.

IF, and here I agree completely, IF there is "informed consent" on both sides.  The trick is how to define that.

Look at marriage, it is now possible to rape your wife but it is very hard to prove.  I think that is a good example of how to discuss consent.  The husband has blanket consent to have sex with her at any time and doesn't have to formally ask, "honey, can we have sex now"?  Some colleges in the US define consent for the purposes of sex as you must ask at each stage of seduction, can I take your top off, can I fuck your mouth, can I now fuck your cunt, etc.  That is not how it is done in BDSM and not by the people objecting all over this thread.  They do it like a marriage, a top has blanket consent BUT there is a line somewhere that may or may not be formalized.  VERY few would say that line lies on the far side of "yes master, you may cut my heart out if it pleases you"....

Best of luck herding cats on amphetimines!

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 5/15/2008 8:44:55 AM >

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 8:53:31 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

How many 18 year olds are on here with profiles asking to be used and abused and treated like nothing more than meat without any needs


80% of those are actually 50 year old fat old men who are larger than their couch, the rest are Gorean Kajira looking for a real offworlder who can fly a wild Tarn.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:09:41 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		So if I summarise then;

Safe and Sane - totally variable, as is Risk Aware?

Consent - can be specific, but more often is open-ended within limits? Indeed, thinking about it, I've never gotten specific consent for anything!

PLUS - the all important "safeword" element, whereby everything will stop, regardless of level or nature of consent given?

So, could we then say (with the caveats about Safe, Sane, Consensual and RA)

"if it isnt SSC/RACK which will be stopped on demand, it is not BDSM"?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:20:03 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
"if it isnt SSC/RACK which will be stopped on demand, it is not BDSM"?

E


Hate to make things more complicated, but not all of us have the option of stopping on demand, and not everyone practices their D/s with accronyms.  I don't know that one overall sentence can fit your need, because there are so many caveats. 



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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:24:58 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Yeah i dont use safe words so wouldnt fit for me either


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:28:40 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		I'm still thinking about this, LadyEllen.  I think something about intent has to be said.  "If the intention is not mutual satisfaction, it's not healthy BDSM."

That may not be it, but it's a brainstorm...

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