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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:35:29 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Yeah i dont use safe words so wouldnt fit for me either



I'm curious on this one - are you saying that there is no conceivable activity where you might want to or have to say "no, stop", and would be OK if it did not stop?

E

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:37:57 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I'm still thinking about this, LadyEllen.  I think something about intent has to be said.  "If the intention is not mutual satisfaction, it's not healthy BDSM."

That may not be it, but it's a brainstorm...


Hi OG - no, I think thats an important element in it, that for it to be consent (within the very wide parameters that are opening up here) it has to be for mutual satisfaction on some level.

E

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:39:29 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		I have had this debate recently and I tend to have it often because BOTH SSC and RACK are worthless terms that when invented were used to shower people who needed it with a false sense of security.

SSC and RACK won't save you from prosecution, and the point that Cali made earlier is Null-n-Void when she said If it isn't consentual it's assult, It's Assult anyway or at very least it's battery.

Lets address what we are discussing here. We are talking about the Safe Sane & Consentual act of Hiting, Binding or Humiliating another person. When and if you add sex to the mix you can easily be compared to some of the most villianous criminals on the planet. So what makes us different is the Idea that we lilke it and want it to happen. However as has already been pointed out in a million other threads is that Safe, Sane and even CONSENTUAL can all be broken apart on the basic levels abd turned into something completely different.

Examples:

A good friend of mine likes to do Extreme Bondage and does so in Strange Places because he liked the astenics of the Different setting on the subject. Once he tied a girl to an old Tree and the Branch gave the girl came down head first. Now he has been doing Bondage for over 3 decades but even when I looked at it I said how could you think that was safe and well it turns out he had done it there over 20 times without incident so in his head it WAS safe even when in mine I would have never even attempted it.

I know a Hunter who knows his Anatomy so well he makes jokes when we are out that he could Stab me in such a way that I would only stay living if I didn't remove the knife, or my personal favorite when he informs me that he could stab himself in such a way as to miss every organ and cause minimal damage, but make it look forensically like someone else had done it. So Knife Play with him would be done with a Knowledgable person who knows enough about the human body as to know how NOT to HARM you, however is STABBING someone SANE? and I'm not talking blade play I mean he STABS YOU.

I know a Sadist who makes professional S&M movies I have spent time in his home I have seen his girls and I have talked to all of them. All of them agree to do whatever he says no matter what and they do as they are told. One of the girls had to be let go because he wanted to use her in a HARDCORE S&M Scene in one of his movies. Half way through the filming process she freaked out and he had to stop filming and it cost him a contract. Now according to HIM she had consented to doing ANYTHING he wanted of her and she never assumed that he would do something like that so in HIS eyes she Consented and in her eyes she did NOT.

SSC is Subjective period depends on the situation.
RACK is no different I know know the Risk Involved but does my Partner? Or are they just trusting that I know the risk involved and they trust me? See RACK has it's own issues and still we have to deal with the slippery road of Consentual.

BDSM is just what it says it is Bondage, Discipline, Sado-Masochism. which is ALL it needs to be NOWHERE in that acronym is Any requirement of Safety or Sanity or Consentuality concerned. It isn't the ACT that needs to be Judged it's the people who do it.

Some will argue that Guns Kill people. I would suggest that this is only true when it is being manipulated by a Person, because a gun at rest bears no danger other than eventual rust and possibly a Tetnis Shot but even then that would require someone (a Person) coming in contact with it.

So BDSM in and of itself is a HARMLESS IDEA however inorder to PRACTICE it you have to involve the Human Element and this is when things get Screwy. What makes someone Smart enough to deal with BDSM, what makes someone Mature enough? I think it takes a certain kind of person to take it beyond a sexual level otherwise to most it is simply slap and tickle but to a few it becomes a WAY OF LIFE and it is with them that often times the lines get Hazy.

I make Jokes about my Acronym of KWYADACTGDB (Qui-Add-Act-Gee-Dub) which stands for Know What You Are Doing And Close The God Damned Blinds but the truth of the matter is this is the ONLY idea that one really can follow. Accidents happen, people pretend to know things better than they actually do, and there are genuine psychopaths out there, all these things combined and SSC and RACK just don't mean much. cause no matter what you do your actions are going to be interpereted by other people who might not understand you that well and it is hard to explain the desire to beat or be beaten by someone who sees it only as a negative.

BDSM is simply an set of activities and they can be done by people who are Risk aware or people who are Safe and Sane just as easily as they can be done by people who are out to inflict damage.

BDSM as WE like to Present in the world of What it is that WE do, well that tends to require that the Sadist has a Masochist for a partner, not always but at very least the desire to be there and be pleasing is usually implied, again not always but hopefully more often then not.  A Person Binding is usually doing so to someone who wishes to be bound, and Discipline is being doles out to those who want to be disciplined. What BDSM as a community or Subset does is offer Those Sadists to find those Masochists and those Binders to those who wish to be bound and thus keeping those who do not wish to be from accidently finding themselves in a situation that may not enjoy.

BDSM as an ACTIVITY within a community allows us to find others who share our enjoyment in desire and in so brings us closer to finding a balance between our desires and our practices.

Steel

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:40:39 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Some people don;t use safewords because it limits thier freedom of expression. Think about why that might be. We are not all cut from the same cloth.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:41:12 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Yeah i dont use safe words so wouldnt fit for me either



I'm curious on this one - are you saying that there is no conceivable activity where you might want to or have to say "no, stop", and would be OK if it did not stop?

E


Lady E, in my case I don't say no.  I can tell him if I think I'm getting injured, but then it's up to him to stop.  Doesn't always mean it's "OK" with me in the moment (this is where that "consentual" part gets tricky) but overall, it's how our relationship is structured and I move past it.

There are many on these boards who do not say no, but at the risk of this turning into a "safeword debate" kind of thread, I'll move on. :)

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:42:32 AM   
missturbation


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From: another planet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Yeah i dont use safe words so wouldnt fit for me either



I'm curious on this one - are you saying that there is no conceivable activity where you might want to or have to say "no, stop", and would be OK if it did not stop?

E


I might want to stop, the choice to stop is not mine to make.
Have to stop, i could say (insert reason of choice) but still the decision to stop is ultimately his.
I would hope and i trust in this that for whatever reason i couldnt say i have to stop he would notice and make the decision.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:42:41 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hi OG - no, I think thats an important element in it, that for it to be consent (within the very wide parameters that are opening up here) it has to be for mutual satisfaction on some level.

E


I think intention is a big part of it.  How that fits in to what you're trying to say, I'm not sure about yet.  For many submissives, "satisfaction" may be that the dominant is pleased.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:47:26 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		Steel congrads you actualy got me to read your whole post. You articulate very well. Me I try to condense what I have to say in as few words as possible.  

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:52:28 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		Lady Ellen:

This thread may be of some help, http://www.collarchat.com/m_1625058/mpage_1/tm.htm it was posted back in February and caused a great deal of discussion and thought. The original Post (mine) was based off of a posting I had made to USEnet many years ago, regarding the things that we do that the majority of people would consider us a danger to ourselves and others for doing. You have permission to use any part of it that you deem useful in your explaination. I cannot speak obviously for those who posted a response to it.

Poenkitten

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:53:23 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Thanks OG and MissT - so I guess then that its about trusting your partner to know when to and when not to stop?

So would you say then, that what youve given is open ended consent, without limits, based on knowing and trusting your partner?

All of this is proving very useful by the way everyone!

What I have to do is explain why we're not crazy and dangerous - even though we do things that are crazy and dangerous in popular opinion.

E

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 9:56:22 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
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From: another planet
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quote:

So would you say then, that what youve given is open ended consent, without limits, based on knowing and trusting your partner?

Yes, that pretty much sums it up.
 
As for crazy and dangerous im not sure you will ever convince some people it is anything else.
Lets face it there are a lot of bdsmers who think the whole idea of no limits and safe word is stark raving bonkers.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:03:07 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Steel congrads you actualy got me to read your whole post. You articulate very well. Me I try to condense what I have to say in as few words as possible.  


Thank you

Sometimes being told you are long winded can be a compliment ....... right?

Thanks Raymond.

Steel

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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:04:11 AM   
Leatherist


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Joined: 12/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

So would you say then, that what youve given is open ended consent, without limits, based on knowing and trusting your partner?

Yes, that pretty much sums it up.
 
As for crazy and dangerous im not sure you will ever convince some people it is anything else.
Lets face it there are a lot of bdsmers who think the whole idea of no limits and safe word is stark raving bonkers.


I think the big issue people take with this is in associating the giving of it to someone who might be dangerous. Like an out of touch narcissist. In actuality-being given something like this into one's hands can be an extremely humbling experience-you don't take that for granted.

It makes you think a lot more on phrases like this.......

Just because you CAN,does not mean that you SHOULD.
 
 And these are the sorts of tops who get this level of consent-because they CAN be trusted.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:06:02 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Thanks OG and MissT - so I guess then that its about trusting your partner to know when to and when not to stop?

So would you say then, that what youve given is open ended consent, without limits, based on knowing and trusting your partner?

In my case, this is mostly true.  I wouldn't say "without limits" but "according to his limits".

quote:


What I have to do is explain why we're not crazy and dangerous - even though we do things that are crazy and dangerous in popular opinion.

E


I can appreciate what you are doing, but when one makes an "absolute" statement, there's a pretty high likelihood that there will be caveats that don't apply.  Intention, trust, mutual satisfaction and agreement may all come into play.  Perhaps someone with a clearer mind than I can jump in.  I'm on an hour's sleep here, lol.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:06:36 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Steel congrads you actualy got me to read your whole post. You articulate very well. Me I try to condense what I have to say in as few words as possible.  


Thank you

Sometimes being told you are long winded can be a compliment ....... right?

Thanks Raymond.

Steel


The more you distill, the less confusion in the message, and the more the ability to twist the meaning diminishes.
 
Less can sometimes be more.

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My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:08:58 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Safewords applied to my kinky vanilla relationships.  I honestly can't recall a safeword ever being used once in my M/s relationship. 

The Dom couple relationship, hell her and I both would get brutal with one another at times.. What went around damn well came back around.  If anything we used direct sentences and words to express what was going on.  Such as let me up, I need to go to the bathroom.  Nothing like like Green, Red, Yellow either.   Ouccch.. that hurt like fucking Hell, you just wait, cause you've got it fucking coming to you now.  Actually her and both like to push things at times, we'd end up with black and blue marks, welts, carpet burns, nail marks, hell.. i still have a scar (a kitchen fork mark) on my arm to this day.  Yes, I actually got fucking jabbed with a fork, however, I knew it was going to happen before it did.  How sane or safe is this really?  Basically she was covered in Wesson Oil at the time, I was standing there with a bag full of flour cracked open.  She pulled out a fork in a defensive posture.  OK, the flour went flying all over her head, and I got the fork in arm.  We were just playing around.  What the hell, it was all consenual. Yes, at times when we pushed things a little too far, we would knock it off and take a time out.  OK, now I suppose some people might think this was a form of domestic violence.  Really in all honestly, we both enjoyed playing rough and crazy like this with one another at times.  Often we'd end up emptying out all our bathroom supplies or things in the kitchen, because we were using those things to engage in our play fights.

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:11:39 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Yep, and to make what they do a level above the riff raff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

The whole SSC thing is a modern contrivance meant to calm the frightened. 


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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

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RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:12:26 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Thanks OG - please, take your nap! I'm off out in a minute anyway - band practice tonight!

I know what youre saying though - indeed the reason I've come here with this is that doing it myself has led me into something of a mire with all these variables, conditions and caveats!

What I need to produce is an idiot's guide - because bless 'em, their comprehension levels are variable! With the aims as I have stated - to disperse attention from we who do crazy and dangerous, onto those for whom the legislation is designed - who are crazy and dangerous!

And it needs to be concise and accurate - which is why I'm looking for a single sentence or phrase like I keep throwing away, around which to write.

E

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:12:47 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		<-----total riff raff!!!!!!!!!

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: if it isnt SSC, its not BDSM - 5/15/2008 10:17:43 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		SSC is one of those 'problem' areas in that if taken literaly it doesn't work but how it is practiced is fine.

A lot of what We do isn't intrinsicly 'safe' in that it is potentialy life threatening... breath play for instance, the only way to guarentee 'safe' is not to indulge at all... but if taken as 'safe' as in know what you are doing and take care to minimise any risks then it works fine. One of the reasons I prefer RACK is that even taken literaly it still works.


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And it must follow, as the night the day,
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(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 60
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