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Euryanx -> A quote worth sharing (10/20/2005 8:06:19 PM)

This is from Elise Sutton's book "Female Domination," specifically the chapter on "Love and Punishment: Female Domination through Discipline."

Any comments on it?

Elise writes:

"Whipping and spanking a man is an art and a skill that is developed over time through practice. People who are repulsed at such a lifestyle between consenting adults have never taken the time to understand the psychology and the sexuality of such an act.

"The skilled woman does not discipline a man in a violent manner. She starts out light and makes it sensual, then she slowly builds it up harder and more severe. She does not start out too hard or it will not be
erotic.

"Disciplining the man you love can be an extremely sexual activity, not to mention it can be very productive in training the man you love to become the type of husband you desire."

Elise Sutton
Female Domination: An exploration of the male desire for Loving Female Authority



Euryanx -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/20/2005 8:10:13 PM)

Here's another quote from the same chapter.

"The goal of the physical punishment is not what it does to a man's body, but rather the effect it has on his mind.

"Spanking or whipping a man is not an act of violence but rather an act of love.

"The more a woman does it, the better at is she will become and the more her husband will desire it.

"Discipline and nurturing are the flip sides of the same coin of love.

"Men desire physical discipline and men need physical discipline. It is satisfying to their soul as it acts as a sort of a relief valve that releases pent up stress and frustration, as the submissive male surrenders his will over to the woman's will.

"Discipline is a very natural and healthy activity between two committed and loving adults."

Sutton really captures something in these passages. Any thoughts?



thetammyjo -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/20/2005 8:12:36 PM)

I know this book; I can't say I was greatly impressed by it but it is certainly one valid way to view the relationships.

I think she's much more into the romantic and short term scene aspects of kink than I am so my views are colored by that difference.

I see discipline when it is a form of training to be one of reward and punishment, and constant consistancy. I think she's really just describing your general spanking and flogging scene, not really discipline as I'd use the term.


I also think that categorizing all men into one generic group shows a lack of understanding. Using physical discipline and punishment on most people I've trained or owned would achieve very little. Each person is unique and the best books will recognize that fact and urge a good dominant to see that.



LadyAngelika -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/21/2005 4:48:32 AM)

quote:

I know this book; I can't say I was greatly impressed by it but it is certainly one valid way to view the relationships.


I don't like much of what I've read from Elise Sutton in that I can't relate to it. And yes TammyJo, it is one valid way to view relationships. And like you, not mine.

I see the way she views relationships as Mother/son like, something that is a major turn on for me. I prefer to have a relationship with a mature, strong, self-disciplined man.

There is one quote that rings mildly true in all of it for me: "Disciplining the man you love can be an extremely sexual activity, not to mention it can be very productive in training the man you love to become the type of husband you desire."

On that level, I'll agree someone. But I would be weary to use the word disciplining. I'd rather say "Training the man you love can be an extremely sexual activity, not to mention it can be very productive in training the man you love to become the type of husband you desire." And I'd like to add that training involves 2-way communication.

As much of a sadistic bitch as I've know to be, I do believe in just as much carrot as I do stick.

- LA



LadyHibiscus -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/21/2005 12:00:23 PM)

I am another non-fan of Elise Sutton, and I also find the parent/child dynamic in BDSM disturbing at best. I am an adult, and I work and play with other adults.

The word "discipline" tends to get misused, I think, and of course that's a semantic argument I won't get into. Physical play is certainly enormous fun, and can be very sensual/sexual, with the right communication. To say that lots of play makes for a better mate........well, that implies that you will withhold the play if the behavior isn't right, eh? Sex as a weapon--not my style.

I am not a believer in physical punishment---though I adore punishment scenes! Does Elise talk about that at all, or is she just sticking with the marshmallow description?

Ms F



thetammyjo -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/21/2005 12:18:41 PM)

I'm in general not impressed with most "femdom" books out there (part of the reason I started writing my own fiction frankly). I find that most of them focus on the man and for me that is not where the true focus should be in a Ds femdom relationship.

For me a good "femdom" book would ask the women reading it to think about herself first and foremost. To get comfortable with herself and to work on expanding her confidence and her experiences, to encourage her to be comfortable with herself before finding a man (or woman) to dominate or top.

Time and again it all seems about catering to his fantasies, his needs, his desires, playing into his weaknesses. BAH!



AAkasha -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/21/2005 12:27:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx

Here's another quote from the same chapter.

"The goal of the physical punishment is not what it does to a man's body, but rather the effect it has on his mind.

"Spanking or whipping a man is not an act of violence but rather an act of love.

"The more a woman does it, the better at is she will become and the more her husband will desire it.

"Discipline and nurturing are the flip sides of the same coin of love.

"Men desire physical discipline and men need physical discipline. It is satisfying to their soul as it acts as a sort of a relief valve that releases pent up stress and frustration, as the submissive male surrenders his will over to the woman's will.

"Discipline is a very natural and healthy activity between two committed and loving adults."

Sutton really captures something in these passages. Any thoughts?


So essentially a woman is supposed to spank/whip for punishment, and then the better she becomes at it, the more her husband will desire it? The problem is that this encourages men to misbehave to "earn" punishment because they crave the physical stimulation or attention. Misbeaving to earn punishments is a huge, unnecessary drama and complicates relationships.

I agree wtih thetammyjo -- texts designed to help women understand and enjoy femdom should start with the woman learning to enjoy the feelings and emotions associated with power exchange. Once a woman enjoys the process of control and finds out what sensual and erotic things push her buttons, she can move on to the use of toys or other implements.

So many "femdom help" articles or books start with telling a woman how to do x, y and z to her partner. So she ends up doing it, going through the motions, questioning herself the entire time, feeling silly or weird, stumbling through lack of self confidence and just praying to get it over with quickly so she can say she did it.

Instead, a woman should learn to enjoy what it is like to have a man submit to her -- submit to her on her terms. Sadly (for the sub), it might not be whips, chains, strapons or cbt right out of the gate. But once she realizes that having a man helpless, making him squirm, making him vulnerable can be a *huge* turn on and rush, she's more open to start exploring the tools and implements that play a role.

Subs need to remember that even "femdom at birth" women did not come out of the womb with a whip in one hand and a bottle of lube in the other. You would see us as young teens playing silly roleplaying games, playfully tying up boyfriends, making guys "beg" just because it was amusing, pinning them down and telling them to pretend they couldn't get away. We grew up letting our femdom urges manifest themselves in a natural way and later, after we were sexually aware, started to tie it all together. (I am speaking for many femdoms that I know, but not all, of course).

You subs, meanwhile, were discovering porn and masturbating to imagery of women in tight latex and using cruel, humiliating lanuage. You were reinforcing images and ideals that really are nothing like what a "real" femdom is at the core. You were often programmed to think this is what sensual domination looked like -- forgetting that at the very core of it is a woman who *enjoys* making a man submit. The acts and fetishes and costumes are purely secondary.

Akasha



GoddessDustyGold -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/21/2005 1:09:18 PM)

Oh, so nicely said, Aakasha!



frenchpet -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/21/2005 2:14:38 PM)

*sigh*... I should have played hockey :).



lonewolf05 -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/21/2005 4:52:13 PM)

yeah... there's the L word again. someone lemme know when ya find 'a' book about total service w/o the L word.......

THEN ask me questions on it....

"I" personally do not like ANY d/s bdsm book i have found yet.....they ALL have some kinda "connection" to it.....from the D to the s and back.

find me one that discusses life w/o it.......THAT is what"I" have looked for ..for so long.

woofie



sheep -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/21/2005 6:28:35 PM)

Elise Sutton seems to be all about really playing up and to men's fetishes. There's a focus on in her advice on dressing the part, getting the props. I actually find a lot of her scenarios really really hot, but some of her kinks squick me, especially anything involving family.

In my observations many women who are born dominant (i.e. know from an early age) did not start their bdsm activity by dressing in leather and fulfilling fantasies. They knew what they wanted to do and set about doing it, never mind the thigh high boots.

But many women who were introduced to female domination by their partners started out from the beginning dressing the part and playing the role, because they loved their partner and wanted to make him happy. From there the interest and the enthusiasm grew, or waned away. I think if the male (as many men into bdsm do) has fantasies about fetish dress then dressing in a way that's going to make him weak in the knees to begin with is not a bad way to help get into the role.

I've even interested girlfriends in bdsm by playing up the clothing. When the topic of femdom came up, conversations would go like:

Her: Ewwww s&m...i'm not into that. i couldn't stand to hurt anybody...it's just not my scene

me: yeah, the pain stuff is way hardcore, but I have to admit, the clothes are sure sexy...leather and heels, the outfits can be pretty cool

Her: yes, that's true, they can look pretty good

me: and c'mon admit it, wouldn't you love to be the one in charge with some adoring man wrapped around your finger, waiting on you hand and foot, doing your dishes

Her: now that doesn't sound so bad at all...etc.


Like a lot of people here, I think Elise's way is just one way. I also think a lot of submissive men can really only give in to their fantasies when they "know" she's into it, and it's making her happy (including me) so I think Akasha's approach, of going slow and focusing on the woman's interests and desires, is overall the best advice to an aspiring femdom.








LadyAngelika -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/22/2005 7:10:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

Oh, so nicely said, Aakasha!


I'd most definitely like to second that!

I have not read one FemDom manual from cover to cover. I've browsed a few and went to a few FemDom websites only to be totally turned off.

However, if Aakasha wrote one, I'd most definitely read it. I'm sure she would write it from a perspective I would appreciate.

- LA



Euryanx -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/22/2005 11:20:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I have not read one FemDom manual from cover to cover. I've browsed a few and went to a few FemDom websites only to be totally turned off.



So you haven't read Elise Sutton's book, but know that it would suck. Are you clairvoyant as well?

What a negative group. Not one person could find anything positive in any of those quotes. Nothing of value in:

quote:

Spanking or whipping a man is not an act of violence but rather an act of love.


Thought perhaps some of these quotes could inspire some intelligent conversation, but i guess not. You ladies already have all the answers.




LadyAngelika -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/22/2005 11:26:16 AM)

quote:

quote:
quote:


ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I have not read one FemDom manual from cover to cover. I've browsed a few and went to a few FemDom websites only to be totally turned off.

So you haven't read Elise Sutton's book, but know that it would suck. Are you clairvoyant as well?


Take your foot out of your mouth Euryanx. It isn't the most attractive look for you. ;-)

Notice that I never said it would suck. I said:

quote:

I don't like much of what I've read from Elise Sutton in that I can't relate to it.


I visited Elise Sutton's website and read enough on there to get a clear vision of her perspective. I've also browsed her book. I don't need to read a book cover to cover to understand where someone is coming from.

There is no need to come at us on the attack simply because we disagree with your view. You didn't see anyone attacking you for liking her writings, did you?

- LA



AAkasha -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/22/2005 11:49:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I have not read one FemDom manual from cover to cover. I've browsed a few and went to a few FemDom websites only to be totally turned off.



So you haven't read Elise Sutton's book, but know that it would suck. Are you clairvoyant as well?

What a negative group. Not one person could find anything positive in any of those quotes. Nothing of value in:

quote:

Spanking or whipping a man is not an act of violence but rather an act of love.


Thought perhaps some of these quotes could inspire some intelligent conversation, but i guess not. You ladies already have all the answers.




To be honest, I don't think any "non kinky" would "get" anything out of the statement "spanking or whipping a man is not an act of violence but rather an act of love." I am sure many women have been told this by their kinky sub husbands and they hear the words, understand the words -- but it still doesn't make them want to do it or find any appeal or value in the act. Period.

It's telling a woman how they are to interpret an act. It doesn't change the fact that when they are actively "spanking" their man they feel weird. It feels unnatural. It feels "sick" or "silly." Hearing another woman try to expain to them that it's ok to delivery physical pain still doesn't make a lightbulb go off in their head. This exact line has been used by sub men for decades to try to get their wives to "play along" and I don't think it's made any woman just throw up her arms and exclaim, "you're right! I shouldn't feel really uncomfortable whipping you, because it's not an act of violence, it's an act of love."

This statement will mean nothing if a woman has not already experienced and accepted that some form of sensual power exchange is fun, exciting, rewarding, and worth exploring. You can't start with "pain" or "punishment" because these ideals are far along on the spectrum.

Again, I go back to comparing the "vanilla" woman to all of us "born femdoms" when we were in our initial stages. I would guess that most (not all) were not exploring pain in the context of *real spanking* (as in hard, repetitive, naked, or with an implement like a cane or paddle) or *whipping* with a real whip, flogger, or other tool when we were at our early stages. The pain early femdoms dabble in is hair pulling, biting, scratching, teasing pinches, arm twisting, making playful bonds "too" tight and saying "oops" -- or roleplaying spanking over clothing. It's painplay that's done with laughter and amusement just because it's fun to make a guy say "ow! Ow! Stop! ow! You're hurting me!" and then you both roll over in a fit of laughter and make out.

I believe that lays groundwork for the idea that pain + arousal = hot passion and excitement. If someone had handed me a flogger at that age, as enamored as I was with what was the beginning of painplay, I would have said "uh - no thanks."

Perhaps some femdoms started right in on harder pain (I'd be interested to hear), but I think ritualistic pain/punishment scenarios were later on in our "femdom development" once we really became comfortable in our role.

Akasha



LadyHibiscus -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/22/2005 3:59:20 PM)

I started out as a spanko before going to the "hard stuff" <G> but even then, when I was doing d/s play in my youth it was not hard pain play at all. It took a lot of experimentation to get comfortable with the idea of delivering pain in a real life setting---fantasy, NO problem!

Maybe you could tell us what kind of reaction you're looking for, Euryanx? I think we discussed our not being Elise fans in another thread, so our unchanged views shouldn't surprise you.

And yes, we do have all the answers, insofar as they apply to our own lives. YMMV.

Ms Francine



Euryanx -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/23/2005 4:31:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Take your foot out of your mouth Euryanx. It isn't the most attractive look for you. ;-)

There is no need to come at us on the attack simply because we disagree with your view. You didn't see anyone attacking you for liking her writings, did you?


LA,

I owe you an apology. You're right. I suppose I was frustrated because I thought some of the statements Sutton wrote were interesting and I wanted to discuss them. Then when i post them here, they are received about as well as a dinner tray dropped in someone's lap.

*removing foot from mouth*

I guess I can't expect people value in something just because I find value in it.

I looked at Sutton's comment about discipline being about love similarly to the way I looked at it when I was raising my son. I would not have spanked him if i didn't love him enough to want to correct his behavior.

I don't think Sutton's feeding into some sub male fantasy. I think she really believes what she is saying - and that much of what AAkasha says about empowerment goes right along with what Sutton is saying.

I'm not crazy about all that Sutton says - I think the whole cuckolding thing is going too far - but i do feel some of her statements are on the mark.

Respectfully,
stef



LadyAngelika -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/23/2005 6:07:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Take your foot out of your mouth Euryanx. It isn't the most attractive look for you. ;-)

There is no need to come at us on the attack simply because we disagree with your view. You didn't see anyone attacking you for liking her writings, did you?


LA,

I owe you an apology. You're right. I suppose I was frustrated because I thought some of the statements Sutton wrote were interesting and I wanted to discuss them. Then when i post them here, they are received about as well as a dinner tray dropped in someone's lap.


Apology accepted Euryanx. I know it can be frustrating sometimes when we identify with something and the masses generally don't. I've been there before. I do however think it's great that you challenge us and show us why you think some of these points are so poignant to you.

Any man or woman who can make a strong, substantiated and diplomatic argument, even if unpopular, is miles ahead of the rest.

I enjoy your posts by the way and am glad you are on these boards.

- LA



AAkasha -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/23/2005 6:32:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Take your foot out of your mouth Euryanx. It isn't the most attractive look for you. ;-)

There is no need to come at us on the attack simply because we disagree with your view. You didn't see anyone attacking you for liking her writings, did you?


LA,

I owe you an apology. You're right. I suppose I was frustrated because I thought some of the statements Sutton wrote were interesting and I wanted to discuss them. Then when i post them here, they are received about as well as a dinner tray dropped in someone's lap.

*removing foot from mouth*

I guess I can't expect people value in something just because I find value in it.

I looked at Sutton's comment about discipline being about love similarly to the way I looked at it when I was raising my son. I would not have spanked him if i didn't love him enough to want to correct his behavior.

I don't think Sutton's feeding into some sub male fantasy. I think she really believes what she is saying - and that much of what AAkasha says about empowerment goes right along with what Sutton is saying.

I'm not crazy about all that Sutton says - I think the whole cuckolding thing is going too far - but i do feel some of her statements are on the mark.

Respectfully,
stef


Is spanking/punishment in an adult relationship the same as spanking/punishment in a parent/child relationship? Does "punishment" (in the form of spanking or whipping) effectively correct bad behaviors in adults who are in a consentual BDSM relationship? Even if the man is submissive and/or a masochist -- and, he essentially has sought out this kind of relationship?

Is it safe to assume then if the husband is behaving 100% to the wife's approval, he will never receive punishments and spankings and they will both be satisfied?

Akasha



thetammyjo -> RE: A quote worth sharing (10/23/2005 9:26:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Is spanking/punishment in an adult relationship the same as spanking/punishment in a parent/child relationship? Does "punishment" (in the form of spanking or whipping) effectively correct bad behaviors in adults who are in a consentual BDSM relationship? Even if the man is submissive and/or a masochist -- and, he essentially has sought out this kind of relationship?

Is it safe to assume then if the husband is behaving 100% to the wife's approval, he will never receive punishments and spankings and they will both be satisfied?

Akasha


For me its the generality of the statements that rubbed me the wrong way.

I am a sadist -- I will spank or beat or slap because I want to.

I have made a conscious decision therefore to no use physical forms of punishment and discipline because I want my partner to enjoy the SM not hate it. I see punishment s something they should hate and wish to avoid.

Sutton's comments to me sounded like the exact opposite. Again a valid way to have a relationship just not my way.

As for love, I do happen to love Fox in a variety of ways. I have not always loved the people I've trained or owned however, I've been friends or teachers but I haven't loved them.

I think equating SM or Ds with love is again a generalization.

i can't even tell you it is better when you love each other -- it is simply a different type of ownership and relationship.

I see Sutton's work as a very "romantic" type of BDSM. Highly attractive to some people, a turn off to others.



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