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physical damage - 10/21/2005 4:01:06 AM

BeeQueen

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

a few days ago i had a note about forum in my email...........about a guy that asked if *numb* nipples r normal...(still numb 3 days after session)

ok....i cant hold it back.......so i gona say what i thought when i read that.

[Modedit], u ever realised that the nipple is the most sensitive part of a woman after the clit? and that ANY CLAMPS that r too hard on it...or longer than 30 min on it WILL damage the nervs?

if i could i d go and find u ..and beat some sense into ur brain....and next i d make u endure what u did to the woman.....and than i d send u to a first aid workshop force some knowledge into u

woman.....get away as long as u can.......BDSM does NOT MEAN it HAS TO HURT (if u dont enjoy it and KNOW he has some basic knowledge)

btw..that goes for femal and male subs......speak up if the pain is too much...and if the dom/me doesnt react to ur complaint....LEAVE THEM.....a bad dom/me can inflict severe injuries on ur body and soul
SAFE SANE CONSENSUAL
and if u ppl cant stick to that ....i d rather say its abuse and not BDSM....
SAFE SANE CONSENSUAL
submissives SPEAK up, its no sign of respect or love if u keep ur limits to urselfe..

[ModEdit for personal attack:please read TOS]

< Message edited by ModeratorTen -- 10/21/2005 11:54:30 AM >

_____________________________

All men are animals, just some make better pets. (note the sarcasm) personal free 3d-chat under http://members.chello.at/beequeen/

Post #: 1

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 4:05:49 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Well - why didnt you respond on the original post and not here... ?

Probably because your attack on the person would have looked unfounded as the post you netioned was quite clear that the clamps had actually fallen off because they were not on tight. Oh and that they were on for no more than 10-15 minutes.

I dont understand why people have to make personal attacks and name calling. At least the dominant approached the subject and asked advice. I am sure he didnt come to be belittled and made out 'the bad guy'.

Maybe if you were a regular poster, with regular concerns and had answered his actual question without name calling and insults, you may be taken more seriously.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 2

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 4:14:45 AM

BeeQueen

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

couse i cant find the original post anymore......and i didnt have time when the email came

and no..id didnt came out that it was 15 min.....and no i didnt see that they fell off.....

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 3

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 4:16:16 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

Ignorance or general lack of experience makes a poor excuse but is sometimes to be expected - especially if that person doesn't have an alternative ethos such as "safety first"!

But I'm curious as to what the guy was actually asking.... From how you've written it, he could just as easily have been referring to his own nipples! Errr..., you did know he was referring to a female someone else *before* you unloaded on him, yes? lol

Focus.

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 4

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 4:22:39 AM

frenchpet

Posts: 587
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline

two links : http://www.collarchat.com/m_185340/tm.htm ("one slid off twice" and " the clamps were only on for a few minutes ")
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeeQueen
no..id didnt came out that it was 15 min.....and no i didnt see that they fell off.....

liar.

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 10/21/2005 4:55:00 AM >

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 5

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 4:42:14 AM

BeeQueen

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

omg..it gets even worse.....

yeah...it is called necrosis.....damage of nerve and or cellular connective tissue

and phoenixandnikas responds r exactly what i ment with my post about abuse

the sub takes it as totally normal that a severe injury on his body was inflicted..and the so called dom/me never bothered in makin a medical investigation of what his actions inflict on the *victims* body....

but thx for showing me how posting on this forum is noted dark angel
i am pretty sure u got full insight of what happens with a dom/mes and subs mind as they r in play.....
oh...yeah...before i forget, ignorance is often a bliss, but not in bdsm
bee aware of what u do, when u do, and to whom

_____________________________

All men are animals, just some make better pets. (note the sarcasm) personal free 3d-chat under http://members.chello.at/beequeen/

(in reply to frenchpet)

Post #: 6

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 5:41:37 AM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

This is why I generally avoid many forms of "play" many people take for granted as being safe.

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 7

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 5:43:27 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

M. BQ-

I am interested in what traumatised you so that you feel the need to pop up like this, ranting about 'safety' and long term injury. Were you frightened in a scene?

This stuff is safer than most DIY home projects, so when someone who is new to it comes charging in, ranting about safty issues, and the poor subjects who are incapable of asessing their own risks, it seem like projection to me.

in my time in the scene, the worst injury I have seen was a skewred eyeball ( and that didn't happen in the work- he leaned over to look in his Lady's bag, and a delron cane was sticking out). I saw a broken toe that resulted from a falling nipple weight, and a crushed /amngled finger that was caught in a folding bondage table (both Dom/mes).

Outside of that, I do know of a few people that claim permanent nerve damage from rope bondage, though in one case I think it is actually carpal tunnel damage from poor typing habits.

what's your horror story?

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 8

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 5:44:50 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

quote:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

Just brillant- thank you!

L.

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to frenchpet)

Post #: 9

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 6:04:34 AM

BeeQueen

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

so any critic about poor information, poor performance, lack of knowledge is based on my personal experiance??

u know...first thing for a dom/me is to INFORME themselfe about medical and psychological damage i can inflict on anyone i play with

and everyone that is not doin that, is not a good dom/me

that has nothing to do with my past experiance

if u think that bdsm means that is *has to hurt* than maybee i suggest u re think ur way of seeing bdsm before u u put my note down to *my horror story*

_____________________________

All men are animals, just some make better pets. (note the sarcasm) personal free 3d-chat under http://members.chello.at/beequeen/

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 10

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 6:14:18 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

M. BQ-

quote:

so any critic about poor information, poor performance, lack of knowledge is based on my personal experiance??

Why, no, but any person who pops up to rant only about 'abuse' and 'physical damage' for eleven of twelve of their first posts, who repeatedly stresses the depth and breadth of thier experience, and makes sweeping statements about the scene really just sounds like a traumatised neophyte.

Poor typing ( I do realise english is not your mother tongue) doesn't help, nor does veiwing a compassionate probe as attack cuase one to seem worldly and experianced.

So come on- it's a nice group, we understand. Tell us what you did to that poor boy-

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 11

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 6:23:07 AM

Constructor

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline

I think the main point here is, that someone is asking about _basic_ safety issues after a serious problem happened. It is great if people try to play safe and inform themselves, talk with others if a mess happened. But in some fields you need a profund level of information before you play. And nipple clamps fall into this category as they inhibit circulation.

It is rather disturbing for me to read that some people here display BeeQueen as paranoid, because she is high strung on safety issues. Good for you, if you never saw any bigger issues connected to play in your direct environment. It is yet rather infantile to conclude from personal experience to the general public. There are many safety issues in BDSM, and there are incidents where people got harmed or even killed during BDSM "play".

That is not horror stories, but something to be aware of, something to inhibit by propper information and teaching of BDSM techniques. A bully attitude and to dismiss this cause it is out of the realm of personal experience might lead to the conclusion, that a person not interested to be informed about potential dangers is a danger himself.

A short note on the discussion style. I think it is good if a topic is discussed intensely and with elan. But is it really neccessary to use such a level of personal attacks here? How about trying to stay half way friendly, keep emotions under control in a reasonable way and avoid showing off a simplicistic bully attitude?

After all a discussion should be about a _topic_ not the personae of the discussion participants

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 12

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 6:24:08 AM

Constructor

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline

topcat,

do you realize what "argumentum ad hominem" means?

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 13

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 6:32:43 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

M. Constructor-

Thanks for the reply, and welcome to CM. If someone comes into my local pub, and loudly begins declaimng that all men are abusive rats, I might assume she has some personal incident that resulted in this skewed worldveiw.

Hence my attempt to get her to talk about her actual issue, and perhaps help her in seeing it more clearly.

quote:

and there are incidents where people got harmed or even killed during BDSM "play".

Just for my curiousity, could you document that?

quote:

argumentum ad hominem

Certainly- but I am trying to figure out why this is such a hot button for her- not attacking her personally.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

< Message edited by topcat -- 10/21/2005 6:35:22 AM >

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to Constructor)

Post #: 14

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 6:43:00 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I'm all for bonking people on the head with the common-sense stick.

However we're talking about an ex post facto issue here. Bonking really isn't going to be productive, and e-ranting hardly ever does anything except cause annoyance/amusement depending on your perspective.

You're never going to get a single person here to say "Pshaw with your ideal about SAFETY! I laugh in the face of health and concern or at least mock it smirkingly!"

Given that, the best thing to do is give advice, perhaps a stern look of "And be sure you know better next time" and be grateful this was the worst that happened. Be grateful that this person has NOW found and opened himself to a resource of a larger community. You have no idea how many private practitioners, especially in the below-18s don't avail themselves to it.

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 15

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 6:44:36 AM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeeQueen

so any critic about poor information, poor performance, lack of knowledge is based on my personal experiance??

u know...first thing for a dom/me is to INFORME themselfe about medical and psychological damage i can inflict on anyone i play with

and everyone that is not doin that, is not a good dom/me

that has nothing to do with my past experiance

if u think that bdsm means that is *has to hurt* than maybee i suggest u re think ur way of seeing bdsm before u u put my note down to *my horror story*

Everyone has to start somewhere. I would love to see anyone participate in an -edge- activity, whether it be BDSM or Extreme Sports or building a wing on their home or doing sacred sweatlodge or -whatever- that they don't make some mistakes every now and again. If you are so perfect that you have never made a mistake, never physically, emotionally, mentally or spiritually wounded someone, etc., I'd have to say that you are a much more deified individual than anyone I've ever met.

The way that we learn is by choosing to take chances, researching what we can, practicing, and then asking questions for things that we are uncertain about. It's possible that this individual had -used- nipple clamps before, and that the ones used this time caused a different reaction. It isn't going to be possible or realistic to test every single item in the world. I felt floggers, crops, singletails, piercing needles, tattooing pens, fasting, nipple clamps, hood clamps, canes, hot wax, etc., but that doesn't mean that when I use these things on someone else, -they- will have the same reaction that I did. It also doesn't mean that when I use a different tool than the ones I had used on -me-, that that tool won't cause a different response ON THE INDIVIDUAL ON WHICH IT IS USED than it would on me or on someone else.

In addition, I can tell you after 15 years of being a practicing midwife that it would have to be a pretty traumatic injury to damage the nerves in the nipple. Those nerves are meant to stand up to -breast feeding-, which I can tell you from experience with nursing 3 demon-sprites is heavy-duty work, inflicted for 45-70 minutes, about every 2 hours. I haven't had a single session with clamps that was more intense than nursing my youngest. In addition, even the trauma of breast reduction surgery, provided that the nipple isn't actually completely -disconnected-, and despite significant neurological injury, -still- allows the nipple to continue to function in most cases, sufficiently to have normal erectile function. As long as an individual isn't grossly -stupid-, by, say, cutting off (or allowing to be cut off) the circulation to the nipple with extended compression where there is -no- circulation, the chances of actually -damaging- the nipple are pretty doggone slim.

The most important issue here isn't how well trained the dominant was, and how experienced he or she was...it was whether both parties knew the risks and took them willingly, and were willing and interested in learning from the mistakes to keep the same thing from happening in the future. It isn't all on the dominant individual or the top. The submissive individual has a responsibility to his or her own safety as well, and has to do the research and be cognizant of the risks.

Lady Zephyr

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 16

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 7:43:10 AM

frenchpet

Posts: 587
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline

I'm still wondering... how can someone call another person (who's asking for advice) a fucking idiot and threaten him, lie about what was said, and expect to be taken seriously ?

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)

Post #: 17

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 7:56:22 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeeQueen
u know...first thing for a dom/me is to INFORME themselfe about medical and psychological damage i can inflict on anyone i play with

and everyone that is not doin that, is not a good dom/me

The biggest problem in giving scene safety advice is the dearth of serious research in what we do. Usually, one has to draw on research done in other areas. For example, I was able to be pretty informative about urine drinking because of the survival research done between WWI and WWII. I can get a lot of good information about cutting and needle play because that is what doctors do (but hopefully not for fun [at least not for fun if they haven't negotiated it]).

Other things like positional suspension are harder to research but one can draw from the work done for rescue units and for using a Striker Frame.

What one should be very careful in doing is to draw conclusions because "this seems logical" without carefully defining the process by which one reaches the conclusion.

A major danger I've found to come from the overly cautious approach is that, when one spouts warnings at every turn in the road, people become numb and disregard all warnings. We're seeing this today in condom use. The government's continued "chastity only" approach has included a lot of scare disinformation. Rather than stopping teens from having sex, it has led to a "nothing works so I'll use nothing" attitude and the discarding of what is a useful prophylactic tool.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 18

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 8:34:07 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Thanks for pointing the OP in the correct direction for the post frenchpet, i didn't have the moment to do it.

Bee - if You do a search on the relevant topic, that will take You to any link You may have your eye on responding to. Including ones on abuse - there has been queite a few discussion on that, I am sure You might feel able to contribute if You wished.

I believe that the concern here was duly noted about the OP on the numb nipple thread. It is obvious He hadn't had experience of such occurences before - not that it was His 'first time' - just not had experience of it. Surely, His asking was a sign of His intentions? Honorable I am sure... no need to call names. And when reading His experience, it is sure from His writings he didnt do anything 'extreme' beyond what is often performed.

Now that said, of course people use abuse as an excuse in BDSM. But abuse is used in anything - if the person giving is that way inclined. But jumping the band wagon of abuse is so easy looking from the outside. One persons abuse is not for another. And trying to 'save' these victims is a falicy. You can't. 'They' save themselves.
I think that the observations that have been made is that Your comments on threads sofar, are all about abuse, which begs the question - why? It isn't attacks on you personally, its just observations and simple human curiosity and certainly concern.

Do not feel singled out or attacked - everyone here are (mostly) considerate and concerned people who have genuine thoughts on wiitwd - and equally we would love people to be concerned for others also - but does attacking make the concern more important - or lessens it?

You decide(lol...sorry - couldnt resist that TV pun)

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BeeQueen)

Post #: 19

RE: physical damage - 10/21/2005 9:09:34 AM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

Wow, this is, by far, THE most unproductive thread from anyone that I've seen so far.

I do believe it states in the forum rules:

quote:

Keep the discussions civil and mature, and do not insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others.

Who the hell are you to bad mouth ANYONE, queenbee? The man did say he tested the clamps on himself before applying them to her, as any "Good Dom" would. And even considering to do that is ALOT better then what I've seen some Dommes do first hand.

Also, few are a text book case in the medical guides. Everyone is different. One woman may be overly sensitive in her nipples or clit while another can hang a hammock off of hers. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. You have no clue as to how the scene ACTUALLY went. All you know is a Dominant came on the boards and asked a question. So you should probably follow your own advise and get better informed before you judge anyone.

If an email lead you to the thread in which you are speaking of then why couldn't you just use that same email to find it again? It isn't that hard, right? After all, you did it the first time.

Here is something you should keep in mind, if you can't control yourself (emotions and rants included) how is anyone supposed to trust you to control them. Dominance starts from within, sweetheart.

frenchpet:

quote:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

That was the funniest thing I've seen for a while. Thank you for making me laugh this morning. It's going to be a long day.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 20

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