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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 8:54:01 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I'd say go back and re-read my original post- most doms actually DO want "useless doormats" even when they profusely say they really don't, and doormats as in obeying perfectly can be a very healthy and productive way to have a relationship.

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 9:24:42 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'd say go back and re-read my original post- most doms actually DO want "useless doormats" even when they profusely say they really don't, and doormats as in obeying perfectly can be a very healthy and productive way to have a relationship.


Precisely. They just don't want to catch no end of flack from the "baggage handler" subs who play games with drama and reactance. Something Most Doms would rather not have within miles of them-living in a combat zone is not a fun "lifestyle".

An obedient and useful slave is fun, a great companion-and can add a great deal to your life. Unlike her counterparts-the "howlers"...who only want to make it hell.

The best choice is really quite obvious.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 5/25/2008 9:25:17 PM >

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 9:41:30 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Maybe Collarme should open up a "Ask a male and or female Dominant" section to go along with the current "Ask a Master" area? Some folks see them as different. :)

CD

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 10:12:29 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		I'd agree with this completely. Though some reactance is normal and should be expected, having your autonomy stripped from you is wholly unnatural for most people even when they want exactly that. That isn't an excuse to be an asshole though. I believe that stuff needs to be worked through and overcome quickly or it is detrimental to the M/s dynamic..in other words the slave need to knock her nonsense off quick and the owner needs to be firm in seeing that it occurs. There is genuine reactance and then there is just being a psycho drama queen.

I want peace and serenity in my life, the way to have that with R is through perfect obedience. It is always the right choice. Doormat for him? Sure. Whatever it takes to be kept by him and maintains that peaceful feeling.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'd say go back and re-read my original post- most doms actually DO want "useless doormats" even when they profusely say they really don't, and doormats as in obeying perfectly can be a very healthy and productive way to have a relationship.


Precisely. They just don't want to catch no end of flack from the "baggage handler" subs who play games with drama and reactance. Something Most Doms would rather not have within miles of them-living in a combat zone is not a fun "lifestyle".

An obedient and useful slave is fun, a great companion-and can add a great deal to your life. Unlike her counterparts-the "howlers"...who only want to make it hell.

The best choice is really quite obvious.


< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 5/25/2008 10:29:50 PM >

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~Ron and Hup

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 10:17:48 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flyingsolo

But I still don't understand how a Dom can want to train a sub to obey completely but at the same time state that they do not want a 'doormat' (who typically will obey completely).  Is it a challenge thing?  As in, it's more rewarding to feel like you have worked with the sub to get the submission rather than it just be handed over to you?  Is it more meaningful to do the training yourself?  If the goal is complete obedience, why would you not want someone who will give that to you right away?

To me, owning my slave is owning ALL she is and the average individual has a brain, opinions and interests I might wanna tap into....  Being Master does not make me all knowing (gasp) and as I implied in my first post with selecting a wall colour, what is the point of owning a female who's unwilling or unable to give a female's perspective when asked?
 
Is there not a level of intelligence required for her to know when she's my companion, friend and confidante from when I expect her to jump to and do as commanded and expected?  And as I also said earlier, I *love* disciplining the girl but exactly when does that even happen if she never puts a foot wrong or says a word out of place?  We could maybe pretend....? 
 
I thrive on the M/s dynamic; of an obedient slave who's fallible, human, yet fun to be with; who even gets emotional, stressed and upset occasionally; who may need a cuddle as much as an arse kickin'; who can function independently when I'm not about; who can double as my equal partner in nilla company; and who can suggest a wall colur when asked - that's owning *ALL* she is - and it requires a brain as well as spirit....
 
And it's not necessarily that it's "more meaningful" to train her myself but that it's both fun to do so and NO-ONE can train her in what *I* require of her anyway.
 
Focus. 

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 10:24:39 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'd say go back and re-read my original post- most doms actually DO want "useless doormats" even when they profusely say they really don't, and doormats as in obeying perfectly can be a very healthy and productive way to have a relationship.


Precisely. They just don't want to catch no end of flack from the "baggage handler" subs who play games with drama and reactance. Something Most Doms would rather not have within miles of them-living in a combat zone is not a fun "lifestyle".

An obedient and useful slave is fun, a great companion-and can add a great deal to your life. Unlike her counterparts-the "howlers"...who only want to make it hell.

The best choice is really quite obvious.

Hold the phone; *that's* the only two choices???? 
 
Where does a moderate like me fit in when it's all black or white like this suggests?  I don't think sooooo....!
 
Focus.

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Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 10:31:32 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I'd agree with this completely. Though some reactance is normal and should be expected, having your autonomy stripped from you is wholly unnatural for most people even when they want exactly that. That isn't an excuse to be an asshole though. I believe that stuff needs to be worked through and overcome quickly or it is detrimental to the M/s dynamic..in other words the slave need to knock her nonsense off quick and the owner needs to be firm in seening that it occurs. There is genuine reactance and then there is just being a psycho drama queen.

I want peace and serenity in my life, the way to have that with R is through perfect obedience. It is always the right choice. Doormat for him? Sure. Whatever it takes to be kept by him and maintains that peaceful feeling.


When we talk about "strength", autonomy is not really surrendered or done away with-you just change the way you make your choices-in this case, one chooses to be part in a team-as a second lead.

And to be efficient, you learn the plan. And you go with the plan. Even if you were not the one who happened to make it.

Most of the drama that I see from "subs" is just the tired old vanilla "pussy power" trip. The one where the woman plays power games, and incites constant drama as a way to wear a guy down and make HIM submit......I sometimes wonder if they really even realize where the programming that makes them behave this way comes from.

And then wonder why thier partner shows them NO respect.

Maybe they don't realize how transparent thier duplicity is?

And that when they think they are being clever, they don't realize the contempt they are creating? It's not like it's not obvious.

It would be sad, were it not so pathetic.



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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 10:37:28 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'd say go back and re-read my original post- most doms actually DO want "useless doormats" even when they profusely say they really don't, and doormats as in obeying perfectly can be a very healthy and productive way to have a relationship.


Precisely. They just don't want to catch no end of flack from the "baggage handler" subs who play games with drama and reactance. Something Most Doms would rather not have within miles of them-living in a combat zone is not a fun "lifestyle".

An obedient and useful slave is fun, a great companion-and can add a great deal to your life. Unlike her counterparts-the "howlers"...who only want to make it hell.

The best choice is really quite obvious.

Hold the phone; *that's* the only two choices???? 
 
Where does a moderate like me fit in when it's all black or white like this suggests?  I don't think sooooo....!
 
Focus.


Those are mine, make your own.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 10:55:49 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		I think a lot of dominant males who claim they would rather dominate strong women than weaklings aren't being honest with themselves. 

In my own experience I have found that a lot of the Doms who claim to want self-reliant, intelligent, strong women, actually have no clue how to handle the very attributes they claim to seek in a submissive.  And I always see this type of man with subs who are classic examples of 'doormat', despite their professions of favoring the strong-minded types.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, right or wrong, to own a doormat.   If it works for  some couples, it works for them.  However,  a lot of men who actually do better with doormats have difficulty acknowledging it, for whatever reason.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 11:01:57 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Ego.

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 11:10:06 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flyingsolo

I'm new here, and this is my first post.  If this has been discussed elsewhere and I have overlooked it, I apologize.

I have noticed that most Masters are looking for subs/slaves who have a deep desire to serve and please them and who will accept their authority and obey them willingly.  At the same time they say they don't want a doormat, they want someone who is smart and can think for themselves.  Forgive my naivety, but I don't understand how someone can be smart and think for themselves and yet at the same time accept another's authority and decision making on their behalf.

This may just be one of those things that I either get or I don't, or maybe with time will become more obvious to me, but if someone could help me to understand it I'd be very grateful.  Thanks.


I'm late to this thread, but after answering another "doormat" thread, wanted to chime in here, too. 

First, people say "doormat" as though it's a bad thing.  I always wonder why there is so much emotion expressed behind that word, when it's tossed around like an insult. 

But that's not what you asked.    The way it works for me is that I obey my Master completely, and I behave extremely submissively to him.  An outsider might look at us and think "wow, total doormat" but what they don't realize is I am expected to be smart, confident and assertive in all other areas of my life.  I am not assertive with my Master.  I am assertive at work, with my family, with those providing me with services, etc., but not with my Master.  This doesn't mean I don't tell him everything I'm thinking and feeling, or when a decision of his confuses or upsets me, or even if I disagree with something he has said or decided.  But there is a time and place for that kind of communication, and I have learned what it is.

I've seen some women come his way who thought being strong and thinking for themselves, ie; "not a doormat" meant being bitchy and authoritative and challenging.  I suppose in their quest to prove they are "not a doormat" they overtip the balance scale.  But if a slave coming to him doesn't act like she wants to submit to him, well, there's not going to be compatibility there, for sure. 

The trick for me was learning to develop all areas of myself - the strong, confident and assertive self as well as the humble, submissive and "gentle" self.  One of the things that makes my submissive demeanor special to him is that he's the only one who gets to receive it.

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/25/2008 11:36:05 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Ego.


Ego, and the fact that the whole doormat thing is frowned upon.  I personally have some doormat capabilities for the right person.  I've allowed myself to be oppressed in some Ds relationships, but this was AFTER I decided that the Dom in question was worthy or capable of dealing with it, and after I decided that it was a risk I wanted to take. 

Once a Ds dynamic is established, I think a Dom and sub can flesh out whatever works for them.  However, there are Doms who are seeking less-than-intelligent subs because they are easier to control. You can always tell this type by the way they handle the first couple of online conversations...they will say things like "you don't question me, little girl, I'm the dom" and other equally moronic, chest-thumping statements. And if the girl says "yes Sir" instead of "fuck off", the dom knows he's got one on the hook.  Often when you tell this type where to get off, they will accuse you of being disrespectful and incorrigible, when what they've really bumped up against is someone with not only a mind, but standards. 

Doormatting for someone you've chosen to doormat for is one thing, but BEING a doormat for every Dom who says hello is quite another. Well, in my world anyway.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 5/25/2008 11:39:11 PM >

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/26/2008 2:32:00 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'd say go back and re-read my original post- most doms actually DO want "useless doormats" even when they profusely say they really don't, and doormats as in obeying perfectly can be a very healthy and productive way to have a relationship.


Precisely. They just don't want to catch no end of flack from the "baggage handler" subs who play games with drama and reactance. Something Most Doms would rather not have within miles of them-living in a combat zone is not a fun "lifestyle".

An obedient and useful slave is fun, a great companion-and can add a great deal to your life. Unlike her counterparts-the "howlers"...who only want to make it hell.

The best choice is really quite obvious.

Hold the phone; *that's* the only two choices???? 
 
Where does a moderate like me fit in when it's all black or white like this suggests?  I don't think sooooo....!
 
Focus.


Those are mine, make your own.

Exactly!
 
Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/26/2008 6:41:46 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Ego.


Ego, and the fact that the whole doormat thing is frowned upon.  I personally have some doormat capabilities for the right person.  I've allowed myself to be oppressed in some Ds relationships, but this was AFTER I decided that the Dom in question was worthy or capable of dealing with it, and after I decided that it was a risk I wanted to take. 

Once a Ds dynamic is established, I think a Dom and sub can flesh out whatever works for them.  However, there are Doms who are seeking less-than-intelligent subs because they are easier to control. You can always tell this type by the way they handle the first couple of online conversations...they will say things like "you don't question me, little girl, I'm the dom" and other equally moronic, chest-thumping statements. And if the girl says "yes Sir" instead of "fuck off", the dom knows he's got one on the hook.  Often when you tell this type where to get off, they will accuse you of being disrespectful and incorrigible, when what they've really bumped up against is someone with not only a mind, but standards. 

Doormatting for someone you've chosen to doormat for is one thing, but BEING a doormat for every Dom who says hello is quite another. Well, in my world anyway.


My personal perspectives tend to come from a practical outlook on life, and a general idea of what I would like to accomplish with my life. I guess it comes from the control freak in me, I am not content to just muddle through it in work shifts or sleep periods.

The biggest issue I see in subs in D/s is in internal conflicts. They follow internal "maps" created out of fantasies-but those fantasies never address the actual reality of giving anything up-personal sacrifice-or surrender. And that to get something, you often have to give something up. And the first time that something comes along that involves discomfort-effort,or forces them outside of thier cozy little fantasy worlds-there is reactance.

This fantasy is often accompanied by a rather vampiric desire to slough off personal recognizance and responsibilty onto the shoulders of "the daddy figure". In this way, the shortcomings of the sub can be conveniently excused as being the responsibility of the Top.

So it is little wonder that when such people see those who seem to have lost the ability to "pass the buck" as it were, that fear results.

"I could never be like that, that's so abusive."

Whuch makes sense, since thier role is basically to abuse the Dominant.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 5/26/2008 6:42:40 AM >

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/26/2008 8:17:33 AM   
Roselaure


Posts: 672
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline 		I've been reading this thread with interest.   My definition of being a doormat is allowing things to be done to you or for you that you know are against your best interest but are too scared to stop.  I have been a doormat in my vanilla relationships, putting up with destructive behavior and neglect because I was afraid of being left, or thought I didn't deserve better.  You know what?  I do deserve better. 
Submission to someone who cares for me and wants what is best for me is not being a doormat.  For me it's getting what I need and what fulfills me. It's all about what's on the inside.

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Once conform, once do what other people do because they do it, and lethargy steals over all the finer nerves and faculties of the soul.
-Virginia Woolf

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/26/2008 10:02:23 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

The biggest issue I see in subs in D/s is in internal conflicts. They follow internal "maps" created out of fantasies-but those fantasies never address the actual reality of giving anything up-personal sacrifice-or surrender. And that to get something, you often have to give something up. And the first time that something comes along that involves discomfort-effort,or forces them outside of thier cozy little fantasy worlds-there is reactance.

This fantasy is often accompanied by a rather vampiric desire to slough off personal recognizance and responsibilty onto the shoulders of "the daddy figure". In this way, the shortcomings of the sub can be conveniently excused as being the responsibility of the Top.


I'd imagine being unwilling to surrender and sacrifice coupled with the desire to have someone else have responsbility for you could be problematic. I know it works when the party looking to give up responsibility understands there is a price to pay for that...surrender, sacrifice and obedience to name a few of them..if you get that you'll do just fine.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/26/2008 11:33:48 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
One of the things that makes my submissive demeanor special to him is that he's the only one who gets to receive it.

Yes, absolutely, ditto and Amen!  This should be in a sig line somewhere..............luci

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/26/2008 11:39:01 AM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
One of the things that makes my submissive demeanor special to him is that he's the only one who gets to receive it.

And this, OG, is yet another reason why I adore you...   you put my thoughts into words better than I could have today.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/26/2008 11:58:10 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		INTRODUCING *DRUMROLL*
THE I'M NOT A DOORMAT CHORUS LINE....


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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/26/2008 7:28:51 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

quote:

The biggest issue I see in subs in D/s is in internal conflicts. They follow internal "maps" created out of fantasies-but those fantasies never address the actual reality of giving anything up-personal sacrifice-or surrender. And that to get something, you often have to give something up. And the first time that something comes along that involves discomfort-effort,or forces them outside of thier cozy little fantasy worlds-there is reactance.

This fantasy is often accompanied by a rather vampiric desire to slough off personal recognizance and responsibilty onto the shoulders of "the daddy figure". In this way, the shortcomings of the sub can be conveniently excused as being the responsibility of the Top.


I'd imagine being unwilling to surrender and sacrifice coupled with the desire to have someone else have responsbility for you could be problematic. I know it works when the party looking to give up responsibility understands there is a price to pay for that...surrender, sacrifice and obedience to name a few of them..if you get that you'll do just fine.


The main issue is a "have your cake and eat it too " attitude. Because you do have to offer something in exchange that will offset the additional work and time the dom needs to do this properly.

So I tend to see the classic "doormat" as a lazy layabout who will not put forth effort in keeping up thier end-just says yes all the time, but then never follows through with any dedication or effort.

Who WOULD want someone like that around? It would be infuriating.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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