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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/28/2008 3:55:52 PM

uliveonce

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I look at it like this.

great examples of submission can be found in the movie "The Last Samurai". I don't mean BDSM submission, but it ends up being the same thing.

The Samurai Lord who captures Tom Cruise's character can be seen as nothing other than Dominant. He is the patriarch of his clan. Everyone defers to his wisdom, his authority and his will. He also holds the responsibility dear. He carefully weighs the needs of his people, carefully meters out discipline and support. He even holds a seat in the Imperial council and instigates a rebellion against the Emperor to bring attention to something that he feels is wrong.
However, in the presence of the Emperor, he is submissive. He knows his place and he knows that although he is a strong man and a leader, he is subordinate to his Emperor (as the Emperor is decented of the gods).

We can extend the analogy to the Imperial Council. The other main Council character is a catty, bitchy, topping from the bottom asshat who in the end buckles and shows just how much of a doormat he is once his bluff is called.

Or you could look at the Samurai Lord's sister. She asks permission to commit suicide rather than keep Tom Cruise in her house. But as time passes, she realizes the honor and strength of Tom Cruise's character and slowly submits to him. Never once does he dominate her. Never once does she stop being a completely capable, intelligent, together woman. But she does see within him a truth and a strength that she admires and she goes to him. She isn't completely whole and neither is he, when they meet. But their dynamic helps each to become more whole and together they are far stronger than apart.

There is no doormat ( by my definition) in either situation.

The Samurai Lord, eventually fights to the death to illustrate the injustice. The Emperor, sees the wisdom and acts accordingly.

The sister, eventually prostrates herself before Tom Cruises character, asking for his acceptance. She receives it and immediately begins serving him despite "knowing" that he will soon die. Luckily for them he does not.

The great (salient) point of all of these relationships is that everyone sees their place, sees the needs of the other and takes the appropriate action. None of these actions are ever taken simply because of being ordered. Often the actions are outside or beyond the order. They are taken because it is the right thing to do and benefits those they are responsible for. Regardless of if the action will harm them personally and regardless of if the one taking the action is the Dom or the sub. In my world, this is what D/s is about.

< Message edited by uliveonce -- 5/28/2008 3:57:43 PM >

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/28/2008 5:07:48 PM

ELMuerte

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I think you have a mis-perception about the situation.

"I don't understand how someone can be smart and think for themselves and yet at the same time accept another's authority and decision making on their behalf."

Lets just take that concept out of the bedroom for a minute and put it in a CLASSROOM. Do smart collage students listen to their teachers? Of course they do. Now can you think of how your statement is completly ledgitimate? Othere examples where smart and clever people who are resourceful listen and obay annother person, like...How about a court room? Or when you talk to your doctor?
You don't have to be an idiot to apriciate the wisdom of those with experiance or to willingly follow some one you find to have good leadership skills. Yes a weak minded person will follow a fool but smart people know excelance when they see it and will follow too. Some people inspire others to follow them, these people know they are in control and apriciate people who they don't have to babysit to have a relationship with them.

I strive to continue to grow as a person and become that type of individual that is looked up to and has a magnetic personality others are compelled to, and I don't want some one who is needy and emotionaly disturbed dragging me down either.

You can lead by example and others will follow.

Or

You can push people with fear and pull them allong.

I choose the former.

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/31/2008 3:14:10 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flyingsolo

At the same time they say they don't want a doormat

I'm currently spending time with a woman who is one of the most manipulative, crafty bitches I've ever had the good fortune to come across. She's never been anywhere near a university and wouldn't know Machiavelli from John Locke, but she is one smart woman. She knows exactly how to handle a person, which comes with being a social animal who spends a lot of time 'round people from all walks of life. She's perceptive and has more than a few tricks up her sleeve.

What's in it for me? The challenge, the sense of achievement, the sense of superiority garnered from being able to sit back, let her do her thing and, ultimately, remain unmoved by any of her antics and tricks.

You want to test your control, resilience, persistence and dominance? Find yourself a woman who is worldly-wise and knows exactly how to handle people.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/31/2008 9:14:43 AM

HalloweenWhite

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I think it boils down to wanting someone who's well rounded as a human being, is emotionally stable and isn't going to be a drain on the Dommes/Doms energy by constantly needing to be given something to react to or being told to do this or that but instead, actively tries to find out what is required of them and respond acordingly.

Also, someone who takes things into their own hands until such time they're told not to, or to do it in a specific way.

Hope that makes sense. :).

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/31/2008 9:25:44 AM

missfrillypants

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a doormat in my mind is someone who is unable emotionally to stand alone... they need someoen else to protect them from the big bad world because standing up to other people or some other aspect of the emotional independence others have is simply too much for them... these people are easily led by anyone who has a strong personality unless they know they have someone stronger who will back them up, or self-sacrifice so much for the happiness of their friends, coworkers, and loved ones that they become emotionally drained and they want a dominant who will be the only person they have to worry about pleasing, which is MUCH easier than pleasing a whole lot of people and generally a good idea for that sort of person. there's nothing wrong with girls like that... a cute example might be the well known character played by maggie gyllenhal in "secretary."

a submissive who is not a doormat is capable of standing by themself emotionally, but prefers to serve another for other reasons, either because it's a relief from stress to let someone else judge things and not have to do all of the work themselves, the genuine delight we all get from doing or making something that makes someone we care about happy magnified to a larger degree, or simply the knowlege that they do their best work when they are acting on the wishes of another. i guess the attraction for a dominant might be that the non-doormat can be left alone more, can make suggestions as to things the dominant might enjoy, and may have talents in areas the dominant lacks they can guide into directions they find pleasing, or occasionally politely let the person know when they're doing something they may regret later, whereas a doormat would require more micromanaging and protecting, but is more of a blank slate that can be turned into what the dominant likes best.

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/31/2008 4:21:03 PM

MstrVik

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missfrillypants

a doormat in my mind is someone who is unable emotionally to stand alone...

I have been following this thread, and I think this is one of the better definitions I've come across here this far - at least it makes good sense to me.

AND I believe you have created a whole new term or classification there as well: a 'non-doormat'

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/31/2008 5:47:01 PM

CruelDesires

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The was written for me by a slave I know and have been friendly with for years. Her view on the term "doormat" . The only thing I've changed was the correction of a few spelling errors that I fixed.

quote:

If i had a nickle for every time i heard the phrase...."im a slave not a doormat" i could retire in jamaica and never have to work again. if You think long enough about it..that whole entire statement rings false...to my ears anyways.....let see....slave...what exactly does it mean to be a slave???....i believe it means that you are property....you are owned by another human being...you have no rights or privileges other than those given to You by the Person who owns you...supposedly you have nothing to call your own unless it's given to you by that Person who owns you....and supposedly your only mission in life is to serve that person...supposedly......sounds like a doormat to me....i was taught that Master is Master....and if He treats you like a doormat...sorry...but you're a doormat....if he treats you like a prized possession...then that is what you are...but a possession just the same. i don't see the label "doormat" as a negative thing like a lot of people do....i see it as a level of service and how far a person is willing to go and just how far a person is willing to submit to another person. i see it as TOTAL submission to somebody else's will. there are women out there like me and the potential for exploitation of these women is huge...so really they have to be careful in their relationships or many times they will find themselves in a horrible situation that they done feel free to extricate themselves from....i've been in a few situations like that...where i didn't feel free to draw the line and say "no...i can't do that" and where i didn't feel free to just walk away...because i gave my word and submitted myself when i entered the relationship.... there are subtle lil ways a girl can sabotage a relationship that has become a living hell and a nightmare....and women like me do it all the time.(whether they admit it or not)...thus removing themselves as the heavy....the one who ended it....but usually...it isn't even necessary that they do so...or so i have been told....by a number of men....they say....most me will eventually grow bored with a girl who does what she's told without question all the time and leave anyways...there is no challenge with such a girl....i don't agree with that i don't think...but rather i think they leave because they aren't up to the challenge of owning a girl who is ruthlessly obedient...so i guess you could say....there have been times when i have brought to light ...subtly of course...a man's short comings and rather than stay and deal with it...cus of course he can't admit to it...he leaves.... good riddance...cus his short comings were killing me. some ways that i have gotten shed of a bad relationship are as follows....they like tears....don't cry....they hate tears....cry all the time...they don't like to have to explain themselves and expect you to just understand everything....pretend you don't have a clue....express a desire to try something S&M related that you know they don't have a clue how to do....the insecure one's won't give you over to another to let you experience that.....sooo...ya mope about...a lot....then he FEELS inadequate...bingo...he'll let ya go... many people would call this kinda thing manipulation...and i guess in a way it is...but for the most part i call this behavior a survival mechanism...a defense mechanism so to speak....just because i am a door mat doesn't mean i am not picky about who wipes their feet on me and what kinda crap is on their boots...perhaps if i felt like i had some say in a relationship once my initial consent has been given...i wouldn't resort to tactics such as these...but ...once i give that initial consent...i don't feel i have the right to take it back....so i make THEM give it back

Your milage may vary. CD

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 5/31/2008 10:46:39 PM

aleshaDreams

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quote:

I have noticed that most Masters are looking for subs/slaves who have a deep desire to serve and please them and who will accept their authority and obey them willingly. At the same time they say they don't want a doormat, they want someone who is smart and can think for themselves. Forgive my naivety, but I don't understand how someone can be smart and think for themselves and yet at the same time accept another's authority and decision making on their behalf.

flyingsolo, there are many that look for the depth of thought in a submissive or slave, part of that depth is in their willingness to give up control to the Dominant or Master to lead. However in stating they are not seeking a doormat is in my opinion stating that they are not looking for someone that is latent in life or in the dynamic. That is my opinion, and you have read quite a few here.

It is possible to pass control to another and still think for yourself as you do know, and have input. It is all dependant on the form of dynamic you enter into that determines the amount of control you release to another and/or that they take from you. There are some dynamics that are more extreme than others where all decisions are made by the Master, and there are others where decisions are made in concert with each others needs and desires.

Stay safe in your journey and enjoy,
ad.

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 6/1/2008 2:49:18 AM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aleshaDreams
There are some dynamics that are more extreme than others where all decisions are made by the Master, and there are others where decisions are made in concert with each others needs and desires.

I would disagree with the first part of that. If someone is living a real life there are hundreds of smaller decisions everyone makes just in the course of day to day life... do I cross the road before this next car or after... etc. No Master, no matter what level of micromanaging they do can 'MAKE' every decision for the girl, she would be non-functional.

However every decision can be ACCOUNTABLE to the Master. If it is a decision, small or large and I am not right there to ask AND it isn't just common sense... ie if the car is too near and moving too fast then wait and cross AFTER it... then My girl is quite capable of making the decision herself. If she makes a decision I disagree with, it is discussed and she keeps in mind My wishes next time she makes a similar decision, making the decision more in line with that. I don't make every decision but they are all accountable to Me and she learns, over time, how I want things done by looking at the decisions I do make and discussing issues including where she has made decisions I want makeing differently.

As for her needs and desires, I am responcible for the whole relationship... there are two people in that relationship and I take both sets of needs, both sets of input into consideration in making My decisions. Where she disagrees, she is allowed to voice that disagreement appropriatly, but she still submits and obeys.

To Me a 'doormat' isn't capable of giving that input nor making those decisions iin My absence.... I have no interest in a girl like that.

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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 6/1/2008 7:07:57 AM

aleshaDreams

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RavenMuse well there would be a discrepancy in how you define the latent behaviour vs the level of control then, I think it is fair to say there are cases out there which the vast majority of decisions default to the master. I don't think that the simple things like crossing the street are suggestions here, and using such as an example is simplifying it to its most basic form.

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RE: Doms not wanting doormats - 6/1/2008 7:32:58 AM

Leonidas

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quote:

Really, whom would you rather have sucking your dick: the CEO or the cleaning lady?

I think I'd go with whichever one was better at ... um.... sucking my dick. I'd definately have to go with the CEO though if I was looking for a slave based on earning potential. I'd have to give the cleaning lady the nod if I was looking for a domestic slave unless the CEO just happened to have a fetish for it, but even then, would be hard so see the best use of the CEO as mopping the floor. Is there something I'm missing here?

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