Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/22/2005 1:08:54 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		I’ve been reading a lot of posts lately about freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom to chose the lifestyle that is right for us, etc. I was reminded of a book that I read a while back by Neil Postman. I post the forward to his book "Amusing Ourselves to Death" here:

quote:

We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we, at least, had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.

But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell's dark vision, there was another - slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions". In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.

This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.


(Note that this quote respects the 10% fair use law of the US ;-)

Now Postman wrote this in 1986. At that time, there were many criticisms of public discourse in America being reduced to show business. I mean even the US President at that time, Reagan was a former Hollywood actor! It has been said that his administration had longest recorded period of peacetime prosperity without recession or depression. Though I didn’t agree with Postman then, I could see how a society could become comfortably numb and be lulled into a Huxleyian society.

In lieu of what has been happening with such things as U.S.C. 2257 and similar bills in the wings, homeland security and all that wonderful stuff that is slowly oozing out of the US and being pushed in other countries (gee thanks guys!) I wonder if what Postman stated still applies.

Are the current Big Brother like tactics moving Western society into a Orwellian society? Are we seeing the worst of both worlds with the overwhelming amount of apathy in the face of these changes? Are we all going to turn into Winston when push comes to shove and denounce everything we believe in or fight against the development of a totalitarian society which censors everyone’s behaviours and perhaps very soon thoughts?

Thoughts and comments would be wonderful. I’m sure many of you will have brilliant things to say.

I haven’t made up my mind yet… I’ve been pondering this a while.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/22/2005 1:29:55 PM   
frenchpet


Posts: 587
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry to disappoint you, nothing brilliant to say... I'd say both. Maybe I need to reread Brave New world, which I have read completely only once (I've read Nineteen eighty-four and Animal farm many times), I might have something interesting to say then. Note that it was quite silly to rejoice in 1984 that the prophecy was wrong, because it was a description of the Soviet Union of Stalin...

edit : there's still a bit of the orwellian nightmare in today's reality. Remember the speach against Eastasia that becomes a speach against Eurasia when the speaker learns the ennemy has changed, in the middle of a sentence ? Well, who's the ennemy ? It's Osama Hussain al Zarqaoui, of course ! And he gets his daily two minutes hate.

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 10/22/2005 1:37:52 PM >

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/22/2005 1:33:28 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I believe that both viewpoints are correct, and that they actually coincide to make a rather accurate composite sketch of American government and culture.

quote:

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.

Books are being banned every day, be it from libraries, schools, reading rooms, homes, or especially with this latest scandal that the US government decided to call 'law'. At the same time so much useless, trivial crap is being printed as a quick and easy occupation for the mind that a majority doesn't want to take the time to read anything more worthwhile than People. We are the self-absorbed era of instant gratification. I simply thank all the gods that there are some of us who still care.

quote:

Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance.

Well put. The government gives the people a vast wealth of useless knowledge to drown in, while concealing vital information from us. The same goes for mass media. Many end up floundering searching for the truth.

quote:

Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions".

We are indeed a captive culture....captive in our own triviality, our own comfort. That is the reason why so few take a stand for their beliefs, they are the rare few that are willing to sacrifice their pleasurable diversions and form uncomfortable beliefs. We are a society of comfort and instant-gratification.

quote:

In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.

Both are true. We sit and complain about all the things we don't particularly agree with in the government or media, yet so few take a stand, once again due to their comfort level. We are unwilling to sacrifice too much to do what is necessary. The government is quickly becoming a hated entity, but we're too enamored by our pleasures to do anything about it.

I don't think that one viewpoint brought to actuality or the other will singlehandedly bring about the downfall of our culture, but I do believe that a combination of Orwell and Huxley's seperate visions are realized today, and will ultimately hurt us. You shouldn't be scared of one or the other looming in the future, instead cower in fright that both have already come to pass.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 7:41:43 AM   
subgab


Posts: 6
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		On sept 11, the US realized that they were not as safe as they were. Problem is they got it wrong. They should have realized that there is about 250 Million Arabs that in general do not like them and that there is about 1000 Million Muslims that in general hates them. The reason was mentioned by Osama to be the Belfor promise and what followed. Instead of realizing what is the problem and solve it, the americans decided to go with the big lie. The American came up with the following theory: "They hate us because we are free and prosperous, we will fix the problem by making them free and then they will be prosperous". What followed is history. They invaded Irak, and Afghanistan. They issued some laws to make life hell for the terrorist. In the process the amrericans are loosing their freedom and they are not able to instore freedom in any country they invaded and they are loosing a lot of $$$$$. And this could bring any super power to their knees.

Now who was right or wrong i do not know. Very likely both of them books will be banned by the time all is over there will be no one to read them.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 12:39:01 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Now who was right or wrong i do not know. Very likely both of them books will be banned by the time all is over there will be no one to read them.


The way things are going, that wouldn't surprise me!

I'm going to fuel up my little shuttle to Venus. Who's coming with me?

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to subgab)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 12:50:17 PM   
frenchpet


Posts: 587
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I'm going to fuel up my little shuttle to Venus. Who's coming with me?


With you ? Who wouldn't ?

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 12:51:33 PM   
CalliopePurple


Posts: 2539
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: SeaTac area
Status: offline 		I'd go with, but I'm in this giant handbasket along with most everyone else in the US.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 12:52:44 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I'm going to fuel up my little shuttle to Venus. Who's coming with me?


With you ? Who wouldn't ?


Would you like a list? ;-)

Seriously though, no back seat drivers!!

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to frenchpet)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 1:03:21 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalliopePurple
I'd go with, but I'm in this giant handbasket along with most everyone else in the US.


I'll be making a stop in the North West before leaving if you can make it there ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to CalliopePurple)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 2:31:50 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I'll be making a stop in the North West before leaving if you can make it there ;-)

- LA


If you could move south for a minute or two, I will hop on board.

Two different approaches to achieve the same end. So I say both.
Society is so apathetic now, we find ourselves trading little thought of freedoms, or we feel helpless as we are caught in the whirlpool of huge bureaucracies who talk until we're senseless. No more personal responsiiblity.
I honestly believe that the minute you give up your personal responsibility you have given up the freedom to think for yourself. Everyone is supposed to take responsibility for everyone else, to the detriment of their own personal comfort and freedom. The greater good.
The greater good begins at home.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 4:15:03 PM   
subgab


Posts: 6
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		Leaving is the easy solution, but fighting for our freedom of thought is much nobler than turning our back and just running.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 6:39:36 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		I think we can quantify the extent that bot were right with a simple statistic. Something like 70% of the US population believes that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 -- these folks are already living a Brave New World lifestyle where they are happy as clams not knowing anything, or at least they are happy gleaning "facts" from unreliable sources like White House press releases or FOX news.

The other 30% are a mixed bag -- some of them may not blame Saddam but instead finger some other evil source like aliens etc. The rest are the readers that Orwell worries about. If Harriet Meirs gets on the Supreme Court then she and Clarence Thomas can try to bring back that grand tradition of book burning; if that fails they can settle for misinformation campaigns such as getting "intelligent design" in textbooks so the youth of America doesn't grow up learning rubbish like evolution.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/23/2005 8:46:35 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		Neither, of course.

Neither of them were right - neither writer truly understood the superiority of democracy to every other political system. Democracy is not only superior to other political systems, it is a self-correcting system that creates more and more freedom, prosperity, and harmony.

In 1984, the idea of social justice and civil rights for homosexuals would have been a laughable conceit - 20 years later and you have the dawn of that social and civil revolution. In 1984, there really was a threat and worry about totalitarian redistributive governments - the global electorate has since discarded that as a failed experiment.

More freedom, more and more an understanding that one's personal liberty and safety are enhanced when everyone's freedom and safety are guarded - improvment in governance for 3,000 as the global electorate has throguh trial and error sought better and better political systems, and more recently in the UK and American experiments in democracy that produced massive, explosive improvment in ever shortening time periods.

My grandparents came to a country that had more freedom and was better governed than any other in the world - but it was still a nation where men could be denied freedom based on their skin color, and women couldn't even vote.

My mother grew up in a much better world, with more freedom, more liberty, with a political voice - but there was still state oppression based on race at the state and muncicpal level, still a lack of social justice based on color and gender.

I grew up in a world that faced and ended racial oppression, and finally confronted the worth of women and their right to pursue happiness. I grew up in a world vastly more free and fair than the one my grandparents imagrated to.

My children have been born into a world I can barely recognize - I have a black son and a blended daughter living in peaceful, loving acceptance in a town that didn't end school segregation until 1971. What's even more exciting as that they are going to be able to witness the establishment of full social and civil justice for people on the sexuality front over the next few years.

God what great times to be alive - to be able to look back at the pessimistic, completley off-target warnings of Orwell and Huxley and laugh - because neither of them was within a mile of being right.

(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/24/2005 7:31:11 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subgab
Leaving is the easy solution, but fighting for our freedom of thought is much nobler than turning our back and just running.

Of course it is more noble. That is why I fight every day. Once in a while, when I get the urge to run away, I think it's only normal. Then I turn around and go back to the fight.

Though I have to say, it's hard when I don't even have the power to make a difference in the sense that I'm a Canadian citizen and I can only vote in Canada but the leaders of the country next to me are making decisions that affect some of my freedoms. This is getting absurd.

So I don’t try to tackle what I have no power over or I would lose my mind. I focus on what I can change. I like what Dusty had a lot to say about "The greater good begins at home". I see this as the work I do in Education. Though it might not directly impact the situation, I believe that in developing educational environments that promote creative and critical thinking, I am helping individuals around me.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to subgab)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/24/2005 7:34:00 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

I think we can quantify the extent that bot were right with a simple statistic. Something like 70% of the US population believes that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 -- these folks are already living a Brave New World lifestyle where they are happy as clams not knowing anything, or at least they are happy gleaning "facts" from unreliable sources like White House press releases or FOX news.

The other 30% are a mixed bag -- some of them may not blame Saddam but instead finger some other evil source like aliens etc. The rest are the readers that Orwell worries about. If Harriet Meirs gets on the Supreme Court then she and Clarence Thomas can try to bring back that grand tradition of book burning; if that fails they can settle for misinformation campaigns such as getting "intelligent design" in textbooks so the youth of America doesn't grow up learning rubbish like evolution.


I think you are bang on HP. I think the American people are lulled into believing a whole bunch of crap. And it's unfortunate really. The misinformation has people even believing that they "grew up in a world that faced and ended racial oppression". Wow. I wonder what world that was!

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/25/2005 1:47:54 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:


More freedom, more and more an understanding that one's personal liberty and safety are enhanced when everyone's freedom and safety are guarded - improvment in governance for 3,000 as the global electorate has throguh trial and error sought better and better political systems, and more recently in the UK and American experiments in democracy that produced massive, explosive improvment in ever shortening time periods.


Faramir....

I pretty much agree with your assessment, over the long haul, with of course the exception of the last eight to ten years. I think as far as liberty and personal freedoms go, we've taken a step back.

I think the government has become more secret and intrusive than ever before. And I think states rights are in a perpetual state of erosion.

I think when we look at :

The Patriot Act I & II and how it ties into the FISA court.

The continual erosion of states rights and more centralized power within the federal government.

The talk about eliminating Posse Comitatus.

The Real ID card act and it's intrusiveness.

The TIPS Program

The recent high court decisions regarding eminent domain and medical marijuana

The fact that we're at an all time high when it comes to the denial of FOIA requests.

I think that these setbacks in liberty and personal freedoms, outweigh most of the progress {last ten years} that you've have mentioned regards social justice and racial equality.

quote:


God what great times to be alive - to be able to look back at the pessimistic, completley off-target warnings of Orwell and Huxley and laugh - because neither of them was within a mile of being right.


Well... I think we need to at least give Orwell some credit for his insight about the intrusive network of cameras and surveillance systems that he predicted. He was on the money.


JMHO


- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/26/2005 8:20:01 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		Ranger,

thanks for the thoughtful reply. Couple thoughts for you:

-I don't give a rat's ass about state's rights. The disintegration of states as self-governing entities is a natural step in the progression of a democracy. As we move to more and more accord and unity (and America in 2005 is vastly, vastly more in accord than America of 1775), there is less need for diffusion of power.

State's rights are farther along the same road national sovereignty is headed - dissolution. I expect national sovereignty to one day be as much an anachronism as independent city-states. I'm a One World Government guy, Ranger.

-I think were we are crossing wires is how we see Orwell. You seem to be seeing the central warning of Orwell as to what the state can or can’t do – the capabilities of the state, or the state’s policies. I see Orwell as speaking to who constitutes the state – tyranny vs democracy.

We are a democracy – the demos controls the awesome power of the state. Not an few men in a politburo, not a tyrant, not ruling, aristocratic class. The demos is the ultimate guide in our system – all policy, and all political leaders, must pass muster before the aggregate wisdom of the demos.

That’s why I feel safe. During times of war, the demos gives the state more power to be intrusive, to tax at a higher rate, to direct production. During times of peace the demos scales that license back.

I hate, hate-hate-hate the Patriot Act – more misguided a piece of legislation I cannot imagine. However, the demos accepted it – apparently, as shitty as it is, it beat nothing. I trust the demos more than I trust my own wisdom, because my wisdom cannot encompass a few hundred million other’s wants, needs, desires and conditions.

Democracy works my friend – for about 300 years it has been steadily winning over the global electorate, completely defeating monarchy, and almost finished displacing/converting collectivist systems.

Democracy works.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/26/2005 8:23:03 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: subgab
Leaving is the easy solution, but fighting for our freedom of thought is much nobler than turning our back and just running.

Of course it is more noble. That is why I fight every day. Once in a while, when I get the urge to run away, I think it's only normal. Then I turn around and go back to the fight.

- LA


[gag] Wow - that's high praise for yourself. [/gag]

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/26/2005 10:02:52 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I'd say overall Huxley was more on track than Orwell... an Orwellian society is too easy to resist precisely because it offers a clear antagonist. Huxley's society has no clear antagonist to resist against... people give up their freedom without realizing what they are doing because they feel safe, they feel happy, they feel comfortable. Read B F Skinner's "Beyond Freedom & Dignity", its a very serious and real look at human psychology that supports Huxley.


_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? - 10/26/2005 10:46:33 AM   
girl4you2


Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline 		if one looks at how things changed from the 20s when huxley wrote "brave new world" to how things were when he wrote "brave new world revisited" in the late 1950s, one can see how very many things had come to pass that he'd predicted so many scores of years earlier. oh, to be a happy little epsilon in a world of john galts.

our society now? toss in a bit of orwell, from both "1984" and "animal farm" (oh, all the little piggies stirring up the dirt...wait, that's the beatles). for good measure, toss in a bit of "a clockwork orange" to see how things can be used to modify behaviour (which of course we never do in a free "democratric" society). it's almost enought to make one wish to have a submarine, as in "on the beach." wasn't it ray bradbury who wrote about book banning? seems to me "fahrenheit 451" did that rather well.

huxley wrote profusely on a good many topics in essays during his entire writing career. his topics were diverse, from his views on culture in america and europe, views on religion and the problem of faith, wars and emotions, pacificsm as presented in the 1930s, propaganda, methods used for ends and means (the mind reels that the world just keeps on going as it is...), religion and politics (the man was quite good at predicting outcomes), the art of seeing things as one wishes versus how they are, views of perception, censorship, liberty and quality of life in the machinery of society, one on facts and fetishes, another on the paradox of progress, on education, on voluntary ignorance, pharmacology and the mind (wonder what the behaviourists think of that one?), ecology and politics (yes, there does seem to be a theme of politics having a hand in many things; one does have cause to wonder why), and even on psychedelics and visionary experiences. the guy had a great mind.

now if we've to pick a good huxley, that would be "island." ah, to live that life in the warmth of the sun without societal downlooks. that would be good indeed.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Who was right? Huxley or Orwell or both? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.093