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ORIGINAL: Padriag

I'd say overall Huxley was more on track than Orwell... an Orwellian society is too easy to resist precisely because it offers a clear antagonist.

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ORIGINAL: girl4you2

our society now? toss in a bit of orwell, from both "1984" and "animal farm" (oh, all the little piggies stirring up the dirt...wait, that's the beatles). for good measure, toss in a bit of "a clockwork orange" to see how things can be used to modify behaviour (which of course we never do in a free "democratric" society). it's almost enought to make one wish to have a submarine, as in "on the beach." wasn't it ray bradbury who wrote about book banning? seems to me "fahrenheit 451" did that rather well.

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ORIGINAL: girl4you2

if one looks at how things changed from the 20s when huxley wrote "brave new world" to how things were when he wrote "brave new world revisited" in the late 1950s, one can see how very many things had come to pass that he'd predicted so many scores of years earlier. oh, to be a happy little epsilon in a world of john galts.

our society now? toss in a bit of orwell, from both "1984" and "animal farm" (oh, all the little piggies stirring up the dirt...wait, that's the beatles). for good measure, toss in a bit of "a clockwork orange" to see how things can be used to modify behaviour (which of course we never do in a free "democratric" society). it's almost enought to make one wish to have a submarine, as in "on the beach." wasn't it ray bradbury who wrote about book banning? seems to me "fahrenheit 451" did that rather well.

huxley wrote profusely on a good many topics in essays during his entire writing career. his topics were diverse, from his views on culture in america and europe, views on religion and the problem of faith, wars and emotions, pacificsm as presented in the 1930s, propaganda, methods used for ends and means (the mind reels that the world just keeps on going as it is...), religion and politics (the man was quite good at predicting outcomes), the art of seeing things as one wishes versus how they are, views of perception, censorship, liberty and quality of life in the machinery of society, one on facts and fetishes, another on the paradox of progress, on education, on voluntary ignorance, pharmacology and the mind (wonder what the behaviourists think of that one?), ecology and politics (yes, there does seem to be a theme of politics having a hand in many things; one does have cause to wonder why), and even on psychedelics and visionary experiences. the guy had a great mind.

now if we've to pick a good huxley, that would be "island." ah, to live that life in the warmth of the sun without societal downlooks. that would be good indeed.

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ORIGINAL: Faramir
It's as if you were living in a bizarre, alternate history world - in the world I live in, non of those things came to pass - they were all failures as predictors (I count Animal Farm as criticism).

Book banning? What country do you live in - what century - what books? On my earth - in the timespace contiuum I am in, there is not a single book subject to state suppression in America. There are no "fireman" - instead I can go online and buy any book I want, or through an interlibrary loan borrow any book I want.

Haha - this is rich - I just went to Amazon. They are selling seven different editions of Farenheight 451, including the special "50th Anniversary Edition - Annotated." And you're carping about book-banning.

Too funny!

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ORIGINAL: Faramir

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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ORIGINAL: subgab
Leaving is the easy solution, but fighting for our freedom of thought is much nobler than turning our back and just running.

Of course it is more noble. That is why I fight every day. Once in a while, when I get the urge to run away, I think it's only normal. Then I turn around and go back to the fight.

- LA

[gag] Wow - that's high praise for yourself. [/gag]

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ORIGINAL: Faramir
Neither, of course.
Neither of them were right - neither writer truly understood the superiority of democracy to every other political system. Democracy is not only superior to other political systems, it is a self-correcting system that creates more and more freedom, prosperity, and harmony.

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In 1984, the idea of social justice and civil rights for homosexuals would have been a laughable conceit - 20 years later and you have the dawn of that social and civil revolution. In 1984, there really was a threat and worry about totalitarian redistributive governments - the global electorate has since discarded that as a failed experiment.

More freedom, more and more an understanding that one's personal liberty and safety are enhanced when everyone's freedom and safety are guarded - improvment in governance for 3,000 as the global electorate has throguh trial and error sought better and better political systems, and more recently in the UK and American experiments in democracy that produced massive, explosive improvment in ever shortening time periods.

My grandparents came to a country that had more freedom and was better governed than any other in the world - but it was still a nation where men could be denied freedom based on their skin color, and women couldn't even vote.

My mother grew up in a much better world, with more freedom, more liberty, with a political voice - but there was still state oppression based on race at the state and muncicpal level, still a lack of social justice based on color and gender.

I grew up in a world that faced and ended racial oppression,

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and finally confronted the worth of women and their right to pursue happiness. I grew up in a world vastly more free and fair than the one my grandparents imagrated to.

My children have been born into a world I can barely recognize - I have a black son and a blended daughter living in peaceful, loving acceptance in a town that didn't end school segregation until 1971. What's even more exciting as that they are going to be able to witness the establishment of full social and civil justice for people on the sexuality front over the next few years.

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God what great times to be alive - to be able to look back at the pessimistic, completley off-target warnings of Orwell and Huxley and laugh - because neither of them was within a mile of being right.

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Book banning? What country do you live in - what century - what books? On my earth - in the timespace contiuum I am in, there is not a single book subject to state suppression in America.

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ORIGINAL: Faramir

Think about Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390 (1923 - state wrongfully forbid schooling in German langauge) then Pierce v. Society of the Sisters of the Holy name of Jesus, et al, 268 U.S. 510 (1925 -state wrongfully forbids choice in schooling) then Griswold v. Connecticut 381 U.S. 479 (1965 - state cannot forbid birth control distribution) up until two years ago, Lawrence & Garner vs Texas 539 U.S. 558 (2003 - state can't tell you who can be inside your butthole). Do you see that once you actually look at real politics, real laws, real cases, actually get into history vs hysteria, you can see liberty opening more and more fully? Isn't the above beautiful - the 14th amendment slowly, carefully realized in a fuller and fuller extent, the penumbra of rights implied in the 14th amendment fully articulated and made law, so that even unpopular people (German speakers, Roman Catholics, people who want to use a condom, homosexuals) enjoy protection and civil rights.

I know for those who are very dissatisfied with the current administratiosn policies it is comforting to bemoan "the erosion of civil liberties," but you can only say it is a ritual phrase - once you actually look at the real, living experiment in democracy all that nonsense washes away.

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ORIGINAL: Faramir
Oh, and girl4you - "capitalism" isn't a form of government, it is an economic system - a policy choice or direction. You can't contrast "democracy" with "capitalism" - rather you would contrast democracy with monarchy, aristocracy, etc. You could have a democratic form of capitalism, and you could also have a democratic form of communism. In both casehe power would be held by the demos, but in one capital is privately held, and in another state andheld, but both could be equaly democratic.

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I know for those who are very dissatisfied with the current administratiosn policies it is comforting to bemoan "the erosion of civil liberties," but you can only say it is a ritual phrase - once you actually look at the real, living experiment in democracy all that nonsense washes away.

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So yes LA - the whole world isn't there right now, isn't like America in terms of liberty, but the tide turned 300 years ago, and it is headed the right way.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I’ve been reading a lot of posts lately about freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom to chose the lifestyle that is right for us, etc. I was reminded of a book that I read a while back by Neil Postman. I post the forward to his book "Amusing Ourselves to Death" here:

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We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we, at least, had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.

But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell's dark vision, there was another - slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions". In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.

This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.

(Note that this quote respects the 10% fair use law of the US ;-)

Now Postman wrote this in 1986. At that time, there were many criticisms of public discourse in America being reduced to show business. I mean even the US President at that time, Reagan was a former Hollywood actor! It has been said that his administration had longest recorded period of peacetime prosperity without recession or depression. Though I didn’t agree with Postman then, I could see how a society could become comfortably numb and be lulled into a Huxleyian society.

In lieu of what has been happening with such things as U.S.C. 2257 and similar bills in the wings, homeland security and all that wonderful stuff that is slowly oozing out of the US and being pushed in other countries (gee thanks guys!) I wonder if what Postman stated still applies.

Are the current Big Brother like tactics moving Western society into a Orwellian society? Are we seeing the worst of both worlds with the overwhelming amount of apathy in the face of these changes? Are we all going to turn into Winston when push comes to shove and denounce everything we believe in or fight against the development of a totalitarian society which censors everyone’s behaviours and perhaps very soon thoughts?

Thoughts and comments would be wonderful. I’m sure many of you will have brilliant things to say.

I haven’t made up my mind yet… I’ve been pondering this a while.

- LA

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ORIGINAL: LeatherBehr77
Wow thanks for this post, i never knew of Huxley's book.

i loved Orwell's 1984, as well as the screenplay "Soylent Green".....perhaps i need to look for this book and give it a thorough read through.