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Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 8:08:43 PM   
Gwynvyd


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About bloody time she got some justice.

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20080522/Military.Gays/

SEATTLE — The military cannot automatically discharge people because they're gay, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday in the case of a decorated flight nurse who sued the Air Force over her dismissal.
The three judges from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals did not strike down the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. But they reinstated Maj. Margaret Witt's lawsuit, saying the Air Force must prove that her dismissal furthered the military's goals of troop readiness and unit cohesion.
The "don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue, don't harass" policy prohibits the military from asking about the sexual orientation of service members but requires discharge of those who acknowledge being gay or engaging in homosexual activity.
Wednesday's ruling led opponents of the policy to declare its days numbered. It is also the first appeals court ruling in the country that evaluated the policy through the lens of a 2003 Supreme Court decision that struck down a Texas ban on sodomy as an unconstitutional intrusion on privacy.
When gay service members have sued over their dismissals, courts historically have accepted the military's argument that having gays in the service is generally bad for morale and can lead to sexual tension.
But the Supreme Court's opinion in the Texas case changed the legal landscape, the judges said, and requires more scrutiny over whether "don't ask, don't tell" is constitutional as applied in individual cases.
Under Wednesday's ruling, military officials "need to prove that having this particular gay person in the unit really hurts morale, and the only way to improve morale is to discharge this person," said Aaron Caplan, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington state who worked on the case.
Witt, a flight nurse based at McChord Air Force Base near Tacoma, was suspended without pay in 2004 after the Air Force received a tip that she had been in a long-term relationship with a civilian woman. Witt was honorably discharged in October 2007 after having put in 18 years — two short of what she needed to receive retirement benefits.
She sued the Air Force in 2006, but U.S. District Judge Ronald B. Leighton dismissed her claims, saying the Supreme Court's ruling in Lawrence v. Texas did not change the legality of "don't ask, don't tell."
The appeals court judges disagreed.


About bloody time. She was very well liked, and had out preformed in her job. Because some douche bag told the brass she was gay she lost everything she had worked hard for, for 18 years.

It was a witch hunt. I am glad to see her get this ruling, as well as all service men and women.

Gwyn

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 8:10:12 PM   
GreedyTop


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Hot damn!  That's GREAT!! I hope it's the start of a trend,.....

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 8:22:38 PM   
LadyRainfire


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Knowing the military like I do, I would not put it past some kneejerk ass that was jealous of her or pissed off to have called it in to keep her from getting her pension. Wouldn't be the first time something was brought up to keep someone from retirement.....

Good on her and congrats!

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 8:29:51 PM   
Irishknight


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I always found it sad that we even had such a policy.  Of course, when I went in you couldn't put any pagan faith on your dogtags either.  Maybe the days of discriminating against solders based on sex and religion will soon come to an end.  The current policy was merely a smoke and mirror rule set up by the former administration so that they could claim to have changed something without changing it.  It still came down to getting kicked out if they found out a soldier was gay.  Maybe that era is finally coming to an end.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 8:41:27 PM   
TheHeretic


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    I'm not sure how much celebration I'd take here, Gwyn.  They don't call that particular court the "9th Circus" for nothing.  Last time, they threw "Under God" out of the Pledge.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 8:47:22 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I always found it sad that we even had such a policy.  Of course, when I went in you couldn't put any pagan faith on your dogtags either.  Maybe the days of discriminating against solders based on sex and religion will soon come to an end.  The current policy was merely a smoke and mirror rule set up by the former administration so that they could claim to have changed something without changing it.  It still came down to getting kicked out if they found out a soldier was gay.  Maybe that era is finally coming to an end.


My Pet has Pagan listed on his Dog Tags... Mind you they are fairly new. And he walked in as an officer.

~ You should have seen the ribbing he took when he turned up to do PT with my marks on him one time.. LOL it was um.. bad. *snickers*

It is slowly changing.. this of course is a small victory.. but it does not mean it will be hugly different for a while. but it is a step at least... it is all we can hope for right now.

We still have to fight amendment 2 here in Florida. *sighs*

Gwyn

< Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 5/21/2008 8:48:52 PM >


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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 9:03:59 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
We still have to fight amendment 2 here in Florida. *sighs*


What for?

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 9:13:23 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

I'm not sure how much celebration I'd take here, Gwyn.  They don't call that particular court the "9th Circus" for nothing.  Last time, they threw "Under God" out of the Pledge.


Yeah I was thinking the same thing.  She hasn't received any justice, and she won't get anything out of this unless it's upheld by the Supreme Court.  I hate to say it, but I don't think it will be upheld.  She is probably never going to receive the retirement benefits she wants.  It's sad that this happened to her.  But I wouldn't start uncorking the champagne bottles. 

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 9:16:19 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
We still have to fight amendment 2 here in Florida. *sighs*


What for?



http://deep.mastersfamily.org/2008-04-18/florida-amendment-2-the-great-debate-part-1/

Nadine Smith has talked at our Church before.. we are bringing her back on this.

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 9:19:19 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
We still have to fight amendment 2 here in Florida. *sighs*


What for?



http://deep.mastersfamily.org/2008-04-18/florida-amendment-2-the-great-debate-part-1/

Nadine Smith has talked at our Church before.. we are bringing her back on this.

Gwyn


Ahhhh. I misunderstood which "amendment 2" you meant. I thought you meant the one in the constitution.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 9:28:08 PM   
Irishknight


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Amendment 2 - Another attempt to force everyone to believe in their form of marriage?  Fight them hard.  Its time we start taking a stand against garbage like that.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/21/2008 9:53:36 PM   
GreedyTop


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Gwyn..let me know when Nadine will be there... if possible, I'd like to hear her speak.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/22/2008 8:57:20 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

She sued the Air Force in 2006, but U.S. District Judge Ronald B. Leighton dismissed her claims, saying the Supreme Court's ruling in Lawrence v. Texas did not change the legality of "don't ask, don't tell."
The appeals court judges disagreed.



It looks like the appeals court judges actually read the ruling in Lawrence... now we can only hope the US Supreme Court has.

The government has no business in the bedroms of consenting adults unless something outside the bedroom is being caused harm.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/22/2008 9:02:59 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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i wonder if she's single and dom type 

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/22/2008 4:41:22 PM   
Vendaval


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This is one small victory in a much larger battle.  She deserves her retirement pension and all related benefits.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/22/2008 6:45:59 PM   
Alumbrado


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I agree that she does... I suspect the military's argument will include the point that it isn't a pension, when you first retire, it is technically a retainer, and that you are still subject to being brought back on active duty... which right now, still has that stupid DADT abomination in place.

I suspect the military will also argue that 'the good of the service' takes precedence over individual rights, but at some point they are going to have to show something in support of that... so it will hinge on whether or not the USSC buys whatever archaic stereotypes are trotted out.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/22/2008 6:46:54 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



   I'm not sure how much celebration I'd take here, Gwyn.  They don't call that particular court the "9th Circus" for nothing.  Last time, they threw "Under God" out of the Pledge.
Who is "they" that call that court blah blah? Goosestepping rightwing rednecks?

Whose God? Sure as shit ain't mine. 

I'm with GT.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/22/2008 7:02:44 PM   
TheHeretic


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The justices considered 18 rulings out of the 9th Circuit this term, which ended Thursday, and reversed or vacated 15 of those decisions.

Twelve of those reversals were unanimous, and in four cases, the court found the 9th Circuit's errors clear enough to issue summary reversals without the need for full briefing and oral argument.


Link here


     Hippie, I'm pretty ok with nobody paying much attention to your god.  And since you don't get to define how I use the metaphor of God when I recite the Pledge, we can just agree to disagree right off the bat.


*edit to add:  The cited numbers are from 2006

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/22/2008 7:04:55 PM >


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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/22/2008 9:42:03 PM   
Irishknight


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Hippie, rednecks don't goose step.  They are stepping around meadow muffins.  The walks can look similar at times and both were inspired by pieces of shit.  I guess I can understand your confusion.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 9:12:32 AM   
soul2share


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I served with gay and lesbian soldiers.....hell, we protected their "secret" like it was our own!  It was never an issue with any of us what the hell anyone did behind closed doors......gay or straight!  That whole policy needs to be tossed out, period!  Very few soldiers have been convicted for raping a member of the same sex.  There are far more disturbing things that go on that damage the morale of a unit.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can shoot to kill, I don't care what your sexual preferences and/or practices are!  Sexual harassment is far more damaging to a unit than this is, and the services still don't do anything about it. Yes, Tailhook brought it out into the open, but trust me, it was there long before that, and is still being practiced today.....but do they throw someone out for that....oh hell, no...they call him a man and promote his ass!  (No bitterness here...can ya tell??!!)  And before anyone jumps, yes, I have seen instances where sexual harassment has worked in reverse, however, the woman recieved far more disciplinary action than any man did or would have.  The old boys club is alive and well.

Personally, I hope she wins her appeals also.  She worked twice as hard to get where she was.  LadyRainFire hit it on the head...some jealous little twit blew the whistle.  However, knowing the military folk like I do, the little twit is also paying for it.....in spades!

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