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RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:37:01 AM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


No doubt some will, but many arrive with the hope to become legal. here in the UK many are lured by gangmasters and told they will be here legally, only to find otherwise when they get here. It doesnt follow that everyone seeking to enter the US will become a criminal.


Considering the laundry list I just gave you, I'd say they're criminals already. What's one more crime?

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:40:18 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


No doubt some will, but many arrive with the hope to become legal. here in the UK many are lured by gangmasters and told they will be here legally, only to find otherwise when they get here. It doesnt follow that everyone seeking to enter the US will become a criminal.


Considering the laundry list I just gave you, I'd say they're criminals already. What's one more crime?


Incredible, you managed to quote my post, yet not read the content.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:45:34 AM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Incredible, you managed to quote my post, yet not read the content.


As did you.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:45:52 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

 Was the woman who's fate you seem so concerned about here Longer than that length of time?  If so, then a different set of rules applies than if that time wasn't expired.  Was she still under the auspices of that legal Contract? If she was, then the rules that were applied were the correct ones.  Was her coma the result of an accident, or due to an existing medical condition which she knew about prior to coming to the US, even legally? 


...i look forward to your figures.

As to the quote above, how come you're assuming that there is anything illegal in her background? Oh wait, she's an immigrant. Therefore you apparently feel secure in suggesting she may be in the US illegaly. That's the bigotry i'm referring to. You may not even be aware of it. i suggest that while you're going back over your psych notes you also look at the bits about unconscious assumptions. You'll probably find it in perception theory and the theories around unreliable witnesses.

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RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:46:59 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


No doubt some will, but many arrive with the hope to become legal. here in the UK many are lured by gangmasters and told they will be here legally, only to find otherwise when they get here. It doesnt follow that everyone seeking to enter the US will become a criminal.


Considering the laundry list I just gave you, I'd say they're criminals already. What's one more crime?


...depends on the crime obviously.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:48:48 AM   
kittinSol


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General reply.

People without the right paperwork actually have to be extra careful not to break the law any further. The huge majority of them are here to work and make money. They don't want to get caught: all in all, I reckon they are probably more respectful of the law and pay their bills more on time than many people.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:49:39 AM   
Leatherist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


No doubt some will, but many arrive with the hope to become legal. here in the UK many are lured by gangmasters and told they will be here legally, only to find otherwise when they get here. It doesnt follow that everyone seeking to enter the US will become a criminal.


Considering the laundry list I just gave you, I'd say they're criminals already. What's one more crime?


...depends on the crime obviously.


Not paying taxes? Road fees, insurance, taking money out of the pockets of US citizens? Thieving from all of the rest of us, obviously.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:50:00 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

General reply.

People without the right paperwork actually have to be extra careful not to break the law any further. The huge majority of them are here to work and make money. They don't want to get caught: all in all, I reckon they are probably more respectful of the law and pay their bills more on time than many people.


...you may be right, but i want to see figures dammit.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 10:56:42 AM   
kittinSol


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You're perfectly correct, philo - it's a conclusion I draw from observing and knowing what people go through. That's why I said "I reckon" :-) .

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RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 11:37:06 AM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
 I've been known on more than one occassion to speed.  Do I see that as significantly different than ignoring and breaking the law simply to be here?  You bet I do. 


I agree.
It is a huge difference, as you put the life of others at risk. 

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 11:43:50 AM   
camille65


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http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4903138&page=1
In another case, Gaxiola said one of his clients visiting the country on a tourist visa was transported from Tucson to a small town on the Mexican border.
"I called the FBI and the police," he said. "When the ambulance got to the border, the border patrol agent asked to speak to the passenger in the vehicle, who said he didn't want to be transported. The police responded, and he got back to Tucson."
A spokesman for University Medical Center, Katie Riley, declined to discuss specific cases but explained that the hospital has transported hundreds of patients back to their home countries.


So the hospital is the one making the complete decision to send people back 'to their country of origin'?
I'm not at all versed in immigration law but that doesn't seem legal to me.

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RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 11:52:04 AM   
LotusSong


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That’s sad but they knew the consequences of their actions.
 
I watched a program called 30 Days a few nights ago.  The premise is that one person who is at odds with another person lives with them for 30 days to experience what they go through.
 
This episode was one where a southern Arizona Minute Man.  He was Hispanic... an immigrant also, who entered legally years ago...and now is part of those that patrol the boarder.  He was sent to live with family of illegal immigrants from Mexico in LA who have been here 12 years.
 
It was a father, mother and 7 kids in a 500 sf apartment.  The father does odd jobs. 
 
They had a daughter who is graduating high school and was accepted to a prestigious college.  Now she is trying to find a way to fund her schooling.
 
The minute man even went down to Mexico to see where they had lived before and their elderly parents.
 
While I can understand why they left…After 12 YEARS, I still do not understand why their children can speak perfect English yet the parents only speak Spanish. 
 
They are living as they did in Mexico. The only difference was indoor plumbing and climate control.
 
If the major complaint is that it takes too long is too expensive to gain entrance to the US legally, then why do they choose to live in fear of deportation for 12 years or pay a coyote thousands to drive them in?
 
I wonder how much better they would have faired if they didn’t have to constantly worry about being caught?
 
Today, the city of Guadalupe outside of Mesa, Arizona is petitioning to hire another policing company to patrol them because they no longer want Sheriff Joe to do it... because he enforces the immigration laws.
 
Lastly, if Mexico is such a hell hole... why don’t the residents clutch their flags, march and protest with their fists in the air at their own government to make it better? 
 

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 1:52:47 PM   
Archer


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Despite the Border Patrol making over one million apprehensions last year, they estimate they miss two or more illegal bordercrossers for every apprehension. Most enter for short periods, but there is an estimated net increase of about 300,000 a year from illegal bordercrossers who stay. An additional net increase of 200,000 comes from people who enter legally as nonimmigrants and then violate their status. Among the alien federal prisoners, over half (55 percent) were illegally in the United States at the time of their conviction.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters0b9c

However, according to the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, DC, an astounding 30 percent of those prisoners constitute illegal aliens at a cost of $1.6 billion annually. That adds up to 600,000 foreigners ripping off taxpayer dollars as prisoners sit in our cells during their incarceration period.

http://www.rense.com/general60/ill.htm


http://www.urban.org/publications/410366.html

Now there are some stats for you, not that they apply to the OP.

As to the OP one of the things in the application for resident alien status is a statement that you are not going to be an undue burden on the taxpayers due to health reasons (waivers available but that's another story entirely) So the deportation is based on the fact that the application data was no longer valid and as such the resident alien sattus was removed because the non citizen was unable to afford their healthcare costs and was a burden on the citizens.

This is exactly when waivers should be applied for and cases judged on a case by case basis.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 3:52:29 PM   
awmslave


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US government must act. Why should hospitals deal with the problems that is not their duty?
It would be rather natural thing to change the US Constitution regarding birth privilages. Most countries give automatic citizenship only to children whose parents are either citizens or permanent residents. The amendment would probably pass easily. So, americans should put pressure on their elected officials to initiate the process.
I see some movement regarding immigration law enforcement in US but the effort is rather inadequate.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 4:26:59 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

 Was the woman who's fate you seem so concerned about here Longer than that length of time?  If so, then a different set of rules applies than if that time wasn't expired.  Was she still under the auspices of that legal Contract? If she was, then the rules that were applied were the correct ones.  Was her coma the result of an accident, or due to an existing medical condition which she knew about prior to coming to the US, even legally? 


...i look forward to your figures.

As to the quote above, how come you're assuming that there is anything illegal in her background? Oh wait, she's an immigrant. Therefore you apparently feel secure in suggesting she may be in the US illegaly. That's the bigotry i'm referring to. You may not even be aware of it. i suggest that while you're going back over your psych notes you also look at the bits about unconscious assumptions. You'll probably find it in perception theory and the theories around unreliable witnesses.


Tsk tsk, phil - still taking things deliberately out of context I see.  Why are YOU assuming that I'm assuming she's illegal?  Oh wait, because it suits your purposes.  Why would I be given to the possible assumption that she's no longer considered a legal resident alien - because she's being deported.  Despite my general distrust of our current government, I do not believe that such things as deportation are done arbitrarily.  And if it IS being done on an arbitrary basis - the truth will come to light and those officials responcible for an arbitrary judgement will have consequences to face.
 
What was it that I asked in that quote?  Whether she had been here longer than any Legally Required Minimums before certain things could happen.  How is that assuming she's here illegally?  Oh yeah, it's Not - it's asking a direct question - has she met minimum requirements - because I do not have that piece of relevant, pertinant information. That is no different than asking whether someone has met minimum requirements for any Other issue that happens to hold legal ramifications. (ie:  Has he met the minimum requirements as prescribed by pertinant law to apply for and test to recieve a pilot's licence, according to either FAR part 61 or part 131? Has she met the minimum requirements to hold that particular office? ) 
 
What was my Second question?  What caused the Coma, an accident or a preexisting condition?  As noted by Archer (thanks Archer, that was some of what I'd been looking up to specifically reference) Resident Alien Application requires a statement that the person is not going to be a tax burden due to preexisting medical conditions.  If she had one and knew about it, but failed to get a waiver or lied on the application  - she was here under false pretenses and therefore her legal status would not have been valid.  (If you knowingly lie on any sort of federal application, it's considered Fraud and you can go to Prison over it.  Even an employer has the right to dismiss you without Any other cause, should you lie on your application to them for employment.)  If she had one and knew about it, and Got a waiver, then such would not apply in her case and would therefore Not lead to Deportation.  If her coma is due to accident while here in the US, waiver does not pertain because it was not due to a preexisting condition, and circumstances at that point become muddy.  Which is it?  Hard to say whether things are black, white, or grey as far as the deportation goes without knowing that Key piece of information - which I don't have, or I wouldn't have asked in the first place.
 
Now, all that having been said, here are links to a couple of  law enforcement statistical reporting sites.   The ones that I said I would find from my notes. 
 
The primary site to locate the sorts of statistics I mentioned previously - repeat offenders, escalation of crime severity, etc - are to be found at the Bureau of Justice Statistics Homepage.  At that specific site,  you can find the most recently released data they have available.  They have a secondary page, accessable from the home page, which offers Key Crime & Justice Figures at a GlanceThe data concerning reapprehension and readmission to a correctional facility (ie, those who are repeat offenders) can be found on the page concerning Reentry Trends in the United StatesThe data concerning Recitivism specifically highlights and details the corolated data on Caught repeat offenders within the criminal justice system.  If you digest all of that, and want further data, you might consider the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting statistics website.  The FBI's Crime in the United States is an annual publication compiling data on the volumn and rate of crime for the nation, the individual states, and individual agencies.  It is specifically listed by Year date, with the most recent compilation being for 2007, and that being listed as "preliminary".  In the interest of Fairness, I will note that not all Types of crimes are reported to UCR data collection, and even though it's uniformly available here in the US not all agencies (especially on the various local levels) are consistant with sending data regarding those types of crimes that Are covered.  As with all statistical data, there is a margin of error based on different factors.

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RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 6:34:44 PM   
Alumbrado


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You might want to note that even accounting for that particular 'margin of error', (the UCR is so plagued with widespread false reporting as to be useless), the actual amount of crime in this country and who is committing it is probably never going to be adequately known.   We can know how many criminals got caught and locked up, but we can't know how many never got caught.

That leaves 'crime' as a convenient blank slate for people to write their own agendas on...


'Oh its the Hispanics'  'Oh, its that music', 'Oh its those video games', 'Oh its the Republicans'....  

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 5/22/2008 6:35:36 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 7:26:45 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AMaster

Illegal immigrants- they are called that for a reason, they are criminals. I can understand why someone wants to come here for a better live, but I have no sympathy for anyone who break the law.  More to the point natural born Americans and those who are here legally can not afford the health care they need, why should it be given for free to those who do not have a right to live in this country??
Can you show me which Title in the U.S. Code brands illegal aliens criminals?

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 8:41:06 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Can you show me which Title in the U.S. Code brands illegal aliens criminals?


No, I can however show you the definitions (from the Miriam-Webster Dictionary) of what the words "Illegal" and "Criminal" and "Crime" happen to be. 

quote:


Illegal
Main Entry:
1il·le·gal
Pronunciation:
\(ˌ)i(l)-ˈlē-gəl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French illegal, from Medieval Latin illegalis, from Latin in- + legalis legal
Date:
1538
: not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also : not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)— il·le·gal·i·ty \ˌi-li-ˈga-lə-tē\ noun — il·le·gal·ly \(ˌ)i(l)-ˈlē-gə-lē\ adverb  
 Pretty clear there.   Not according to law.   And to further clarify things, Illicit specifically means (according to the English language) : Not Permitted, Unlawful.How 'bout we take "criminal" now. 
quote:

Criminal
Main Entry:


1crim·i·nal
Pronunciation:
\ˈkri-mə-nəl, ˈkrim-nəl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French or Late Latin; Anglo-French criminal, from Late Latin criminalis, from Latin crimin-, crimen crime
Date:
15th century 1: relating to, involving, or being a crime <criminal neglect>2: relating to crime or to the prosecution of suspects in a crime <criminal statistics> <brought criminal action>3: guilty of crime; also : of or befitting a criminal <a criminal mind>4: disgraceful— crim·i·nal·ly adverb  



Main Entry:
2criminal
Function:
noun
Date:
circa 1626
1 : one who has committed a crime 2 : a person who has been convicted of a crime
 Ok, so a "criminal act" is a Crime - an Unlawful or Illicit Act.  A "criminal" is the person who perpetrates that crime.  And just so there are no misunderstandings of what Crime is defined as in this language:  
quote:

Crime
Main Entry: crime
Pronunciation:
\ˈkrīm\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin crimen accusation, reproach, crime; probably akin to Latin cernere to sift, determine
Date:
14th century
1: an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law; especially : a gross violation of law
 So.. in the long run, what does all this Mean? It means that if something is Illegal, it is a Crime - the commission of a Crime makes someone a Criminal - the perpetrator of that Illegal act.  There are laws on the books concerning the proper methods of entry into this (and every other) country.  Not following those laws - illegally/illicitly entering the country, ie committing a crime in order to be here - is therefore an inherantly criminal action. 

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 8:45:27 PM   
PanthersMom


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stabilize them, send them home and keep them out until they can come in legally.  illegal means they broke the law to get here.  if we broke the laws of their countries we'd likely be doing prison time if not worse!  shipping them back is far better than they deserve but we don't happen to have 11 million prison openings.  and they'd still be here mooching off the taxpayers!
PM

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Illegal Immigrant patients sent to home countries - 5/22/2008 8:49:18 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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If we don't send them back, at the very least we can and should bill the Government of the Country of Origin.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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