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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/26/2008 8:12:20 AM

CelticPrince

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quote:

To me the whole terminology of the Lifestyle has become convoluted. Most that call themselves "Doms" only want to hear a woman/man scream. Most that refer to themselves as "sub" are just selfish brats, they give what they want, when they want to give it. That is not sub, it is brat. And I don't like that most folks use "sub" "slave" interchangeablly. They are two very different beings. I think part of the issue came with the internet. Folks read so they think they know. Same mentality those with a college degree have. Because you hold a piece of paper, you know it all. Sorry but that isn't the way things work.

mistressA,

Smiles, I also remember back before all the internet wise path walkers became instantly experienced. Your point is well put. Thanks for your thoughts.

CP

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/26/2008 8:43:18 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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I think I woke up feeling contrary today. Sometimes it seems to me as if BDSM'ers are all a bunch of artists trying to diligently color within the lines of their own devising. I just want to hand them all a blank canvas and fresh paints.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/26/2008 10:57:36 AM

CelticPrince

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quote:

I think I woke up feeling contrary today. Sometimes it seems to me as if BDSM'ers are all a bunch of artists trying to diligently color within the lines of their own devising. I just want to hand them all a blank canvas and fresh paints.

WD,

Who more than you might be in a better position to ponder the terms "submissive' Yes I read your profile. Settling into a lap might well be beneficial for your piece of mind.

CP

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/26/2008 1:37:10 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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You are correct, CP. Which is why I came to this post originally, and why I keep returning.

Sometimes it does seem as if BDSM has become too much of a fad, and the terminology we use too generic. Perhaps it is because what drew me to BDSM was the taboo. The forbidden fruit that just thinking of biting into gave my heart a flutter and sent a tingling sensation rippling through my tummy. I find it rather sad that I am now faced with the realization that the old adage "be careful what you ask for" strikes deeply home for me. Having once sat proudly in court as a witness, defending the rights of our BDSM club to particpate in BDSM uncesored - I find myself having come full circle and wondering if a little structure might not hurt the BDSM subculture.

Then again, these days I find myself hating terms like negotiation! ME?! Former advocate of negotation mentoring for new members of our group. I think I could just strangle the next person who wants me to negotiate my needs.

I want a blank canvas! I want to BE a blank canvas, not a paint by numbers.

I want to peer into the gaze of another, and see the blank canvas within them and watch the art reveal itself as the person they are is revealed slowly to me. I want to feel the 'who I am' unfolding beneath a touch and a gaze. Growing and blossoming. I don't want to negotiate it to death.

I don't want to be a singular 'thing' defined by a simple word because there's no life in it.

(sighs) I did mention that I woke up feeling contrary today.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 7:33:52 AM

Mavis

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i use the terms submissive and slave as terms to define an operating role. i am not a submissive personality, not a natural submissive, but i function submissivly by choice, within that one relationship. i also function as a slave , by choice, within a different relationship.

i can function as an employee, a parent, a wife, a voter, and still be me, all while fully "being" those others things.

When the press refers to "A voter" or "The voters" we all know they mean "humans in their political deciding role" and personality type isn't part of the expectation. I think this lifestyle is similar... it's actions, not personality type that carry the thing forward.

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none of this applies to me, i'm only playing with lables this week.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 9:32:34 AM

IronBear

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Perhaps looking at the word submissive in a wider light is the key. There are those folk who naturally prefer, want or crave to follow orders and have a set routing to follow. This makes them happy and secure. If they then focus this submissiveness on one person or a small group of people such as a home we start to see the submissivres in the D/s and M/s arena. In this simplifies example, I am taking a slave as being a submissive first and then by the terms of her submission and dynamics into which she wished to enter she becomes a consensual slave. So no I see no weakening in the term submissive as it describes the mental, emotional and personality of a group of people many of which are mundane folk and non kinky.

Iron Bear
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(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does." (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 11:33:23 AM

DesFIP

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Actually, proof reading his writing and correcting his errors in paperwork is one of my responsibilities. I'm better at it than he is, it's something he wants from me. I'm not always enthused at 7:15AM to be asked to do this, but I submit and do so.

Why is it the only 'twue' female submissive skill is said to be cock sucking?

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 12:09:47 PM

Padriag

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The question in the topic was, "Has "submissive become a misnomer?"

Perhaps to some extent it always was.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 12:40:59 PM

subtee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

The question in the topic was, "Has "submissive become a misnomer?"

Perhaps to some extent it always was.

I wonder, is this true then for any label? Democrat, actor, boss, carpenter...

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 12:44:20 PM

lateralist1

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Because all words do mean different things to different people a certain amount of negotiation/communication is necessary.
However one cannot possibly negotiate a relationship upfront.
We all behave differently with different people.
Is helping someone being submissive to them?
I don't think so.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 12:54:02 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

The question in the topic was, "Has "submissive become a misnomer?"

Perhaps to some extent it always was.

I wonder, is this true then for any label? Democrat, actor, boss, carpenter...

In some cases, not so in others. Two examples taken from your list.

Few would argue who or what a carpenter is... but then its a well defined occupation closely associated with specific activities and products.

But there are many who might argue just what a Democrat is. I mean, you can be registered as a democract for voting purposes, but within that you have a fairly wide latittude of ideals, beliefs, philosophies, etc... most of which is far less concrete.

The two common themes I see with the above and with "submissives/slaves/dominants/masters/mistresses" is that one) all those are only closely associated with a few things, and beyond that there is a wide lattitude of possibilities and variations, and second) all those, like democrats (or republicans) often carry strongly held personal meanings. That is, we aren't just using them to label an occupation... we're using them to convey who we are as individuals, small wonder then there is so little concensus regarding widely accepted meanings or definitions.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 1:35:41 PM

subtee

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Is the word "submissive," adjective, noun or otherwise not helpful then in terms of identity or classification? Is the same true with the word "dominant?" Is that a misnomer as well?

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 2:32:55 PM

Padriag

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I think beyond the very basic concepts of being submissive or dominant, reading too much into the labels of submissive or dominant is setting oneself up for potential misunderstandings, even more so with the labels of master/mistress/slave.

Put another way, if someone tells me they are submissive about all I assume is that to some degree they are or wish to be or perceive themselves as being submissive in orientation or role. I don't assume that means they are submissive all the time, or only in the bedroom, or only during negotiated scenes... as it could be any of those or other possibilities... same for "dominants". I don't pay too much attention to whether they call themselves submissive or slave, at least not until I know them. In other words, I approach just about everyone as an individual and try to get to know them, how they view themselves, and specifically what they want (or believe they want)... and then take things from there. I've met slaves that I wouldn't consider a slave.... submissives who I would consider slaves... and both switches and dommes who would have submitted to me. Its taught me that you just don't know... until you take the time to know.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 3:04:45 PM

subtee

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Seeing an individual and not making assumptions or reading into things are, of course, all good things to do or not do, as the case pertains. I just fail to see how a word becomes a misnomer simply because there are widely varying meanings that may or may not apply to the individual.

Who is to say, then?

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 3:19:02 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Who is to say, then?

That's sort of the problem... there is no one to say.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 3:20:23 PM

subtee

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What about between you and she, (if you feel like addressing that)?

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 3:41:17 PM

Padriag

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That would apply only between "me" and "she"... two people might have an understanding of how a word is used... to everyone else it might still seem wrong, a misnomer.

I say the sky is "green" and she agrees... everyone else still thinks we're nuts and the sky is obviously blue... except those enjoying a nice sunset where the sky might be red, orange, purple and/or golden.

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 5:41:55 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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I dont' know for certain, but it seems to me as if the problem with the BDSM verbiage isn't whether or not the titles are misnomers, but that people tend to project their own opinions onto others - regardless of whether or not that other person has clearly defined who they are by their own standards. Yes, I will be the first to acknowledge that I'm a lousy example to use to illustrate what I'm trying to convey- but well, here goes:

I've been told I wasn't submissive at all, by those with whom I wasn't submissively inclined.
I've been told I'm vanilla by well...every single person in the Gorean house I once lived in. No surprise there hehe.
I"ve been told I'm a slave at heart, by someone who wanted me to be a slave.
I've been told I was a Dominant, by someone who wanted me to be Dominant, despite my never having made any claims of BEING Dominant. At best, I'll claim to be Top'ish, when the chemistry is right.

All in all, I just shake my head and smile. Sometimes I just exhale heavily, and try not to burst into tears. In retrospect, I'm probably the least knowledgeable person to post their thoughts in this particular thread. However, because I find it hard to really define the complexity that is "me" within a BDSM context, I try to avoid laying claim to being submissive at all even when deep down, I want to BE exactly that. My dad used to say, if wishes were fishes - we'd all have fins and wish ourselves into fishy skins.." It doesn't seem very fair that who I am capable of being relies so heavily on the yen to my yang (or is it yang to my yen?). It implies I have no sense of individuality away from others, and that is completely as far from the truth as it gets. I just know that it takes a particular chemistry and connection to inspire within me all that I want and need to be, and until that happens I'm content to be just good 'ole Winsome, thank you very much. Misnomers, verbiage, labels and projections aside.

W

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 5:45:42 PM

CelticPrince

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quote:

(sighs) I did mention that I woke up feeling contrary today.

WD,

Well waking up in any mood is far better than not waking up at all.
Indeed you have put voice to a continuing and problematical fact for us path walkers.

CP

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RE: Has "submissive become a misnomer? - 5/27/2008 5:48:52 PM

CelticPrince

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quote:

i use the terms submissive and slave as terms to define an operating role. i am not a submissive personality, not a natural submissive, but i function submissivly by choice, within that one relationship. i also function as a slave , by choice, within a different relationship.

i can function as an employee, a parent, a wife, a voter, and still be me, all while fully "being" those others things.

When the press refers to "A voter" or "The voters" we all know they mean "humans in their political deciding role" and personality type isn't part of the expectation. I think this lifestyle is similar... it's actions, not personality type that carry the thing forward.

Mavis,

Well being flexible certainly serves you well. I am surprised that it does not cause problems from time to time as you switch your roles.

CP

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