RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated...

RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 2:27:41 PM)
The military is not a government on to itself. It still answers to the people that fund them. It takes its orders from civil society.

FullCircle -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 2:27:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Why do you think the guards in the towers have guns.... We manage without prisons having gun towers I expect your prisoners must just be more evil and more able to kill with their bare hands. [8\|]

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 2:44:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level dc said something quite important -- "alleged terrorists". If it was certain that some of them were terrorists, would that change anyone's thoughts about torture? No, not at all. Torture is counterproductive.

FullCircle -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 2:48:07 PM)
Indeed I'd be tempted to make up a story if I knew nothing but was in hell. I'd do anything to get it to end for five or ten minutes.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 2:52:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle Indeed I'd be tempted to make up a story if I knew nothing but was in hell. I'd do anything to get it to end for five or ten minutes. And those who claim to have been waterboarded during advanced training (and I use the word "claim" deliberately") fail to understand a crucial distinction. Those guys in the military who go through that training are aware that the military doesn't kill or intend to harm its own personnel. POWs have no such assurance.

rulemylife -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 2:53:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Torture is a part of war - GET OVER IT! Did the Vietnameese turn down john mc cains pillow and give him a mint and a terry cloth robe at night? Did the Iraqis do the same for Jeff Zahn? EACH AND EVERY AMERICAN POW IN THE 1991 Gulf War was tortured, several MALE AND FEMALE were raped. (Thats a fact, thanks to the horny cornholers of the iraqi army, sexual assault resistance was added to SERE training, leading to the airforce academy scandal.) Ok the Geneva Accords are toilet paper and only two countries in history ever followed it - Nazi Germany and US! (The Nazis were actually quite good to POW's , not concentration camp inmates / political prisoners I am talking POW's. If you were captured by the japaneese you were as good as dead...) There are soooooooooooooo many atrocities of humanity to obsess about where we were the VICTIM - Unit 731, the death march on battan, the burma railroad, The Hanoi Hilton, the various pleasant camps in Laos and Cambodia, and on and on and on.... For Christs sake NOBODY IS BEING TORTURED. Waterboarding is not torture, its scary and unpleasant yes but it leaves no long lasting effects. Ive had it done to me in SERE. In fact, while I cannot tell you exactly what goes on in a SERE class because it is classified CONFIDENTIAL, let me tell you that WORSE has been done to each and every american aircrew member, special forces member, intelligence officer, and anyone else requiring SERE level C before deployment.... I was hospitalized and needed rabies shots after my SERE class... The purpose of a SERE class is to train you for what they WILL do to you if captured. What our loving, kind, gentle, humane enemies will do to an american prisoner.... In my SERE class a guy had to be removed because he attempted suicide by BITING his wrists cause he didnt have anything to slash them with... Thats how pleasnant it is... Torture - LMFAO THEY PUT PANTIES ON THEIR HEADS! Fucking panties! OK Jesus Christ being forced to drink alcohol, eat barbecued pork and to wear panties on your head. Thats torture? Sounds like a fun night at Kev's house! Fuck lets have a pig roast, break out the bottle of Jerimiah Weed and my Frozen Concoction maker and all the ladies can put their panties on my head ok??? I volunteer for torture. Soooooooooo, if it's that CONFIDENTIAL should you even be telling us this? Wait, I know. You can tell us but now you have to kill us?

Zensee -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 3:13:34 PM)
DA kills me every time he posts. He da bomb. Z.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 3:16:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee DA kills me every time he posts. He da bomb. Z. I can smell the testosterone from my house, 850 miles away.

rulemylife -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 3:20:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level dc said something quite important -- "alleged terrorists". If it was certain that some of them were terrorists, would that change anyone's thoughts about torture? No! Christ, I can't even believe we're having this discussion. I don't just mean here on these boards but in this country. Aren't we the leading country in the world because we've adhered to to certain ideals and principles? So should we abandon those and start hacking off people's heads because that's what the terrorists do to us?

MasterGangelS -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 3:32:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator dont join al queda and you wont be captured and sent anywhere... Its a choice. They chose wrong and allah cant save their asses from the US Military.... None of these people are in custody for not bringing a dish to pass to the potluck supper at the Baptist Church! I think the main point here is that, as others have said, there are ALLEGED terrorists in Abu Gh'raib. You think if the government could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the prisoners there belong to Al Quaeda, they wouldn't have done so already? Most of the inmates were snatched, without warning, from their homes in the dead of night and taken away. For years. Without trial. It is entirely beyond me how, in this day and age of the Internet, so many people supported the war to begin with. Brainwashing the Germans (to use a tired example) was much easier because the government had even more control over what was published. That the majority of the population in the US could still be brainwashed to a similar extent in the 21st century, with independent media at their fingertips, with millions of protesters from other countries and their own trying to get them to see sense, is just beyond my comprehension. And that is why I don't see Bush or his administration ever being held accountable for all this. At least not in our lifetimes. Perhaps one day, when our great grandchildren learn about this in history class, it will be as obvious to them what happened, as it is to us now when it comes to WW2 and Nazi Germany. But with so many sheeple running around believing every word the mainstream media feeds them to keep them terrified and misinformed, I don't have much hope for that. In fact I'd be surprised if there is still a world to speak of. Perhaps the US will have successfully destroyed every other culture by then. sigh ~ Angel

camille65 -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 3:36:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterGangelS And that is why I don't see Bush or his administration ever being held accountable for all this. At least not in our lifetimes. Perhaps one day, when our great grandchildren learn about this in history class, it will be as obvious to them what happened, as it is to us now when it comes to WW2 and Nazi Germany. I agree. I've lost so much faith in our country, enough to believe that there will be no accountability.

JohnWarren -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 4:06:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle Indeed I'd be tempted to make up a story if I knew nothing but was in hell. I'd do anything to get it to end for five or ten minutes. And those who claim to have been waterboarded during advanced training (and I use the word "claim" deliberately") fail to understand a crucial distinction. Those guys in the military who go through that training are aware that the military doesn't kill or intend to harm its own personnel. POWs have no such assurance. As someone who has "been there" I'll second that. There is just so much pain the body can take before a certain auto-anaesthesia takes effect. (I'll add that that level of pain is much higher than most can believe) However, there real terror is you have no control. You are literally at the mercy of the merciless. That makes the pain much worse. You know it will go on and on until you die and soon you come to pray for that moment

DomAviator -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 4:23:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Soooooooooo, if it's that CONFIDENTIAL should you even be telling us this? Wait, I know. You can tell us but now you have to kill us? Because there are portions of the training that are publically known and have been reported - such as the waterboarding. There are other parts that are classified as CONFIDENTIAL and those portions I will not discuss. Hence the reason there is no "what to expect in SERE" gouge out there... Putting out the curriculum on how downed pilots / aircrew etc Survive, Evade, Resist, and Escape would be rather self defeating... So no, I will not say exactly what happened at SERE, beyond the publically known fact that we were captured and subject to a variety of interrogation techniques including waterboarding... As for hippie's position that "Those guys in the military who go through that training are aware that the military doesn't kill or intend to harm its own personnel." There is NO such assurance. Everyone going through SERE is "harmed", many myself included require hospitalization afterwards... There was a scandal in the Air Force Academy in which female personell were actually (not simulated) raped during SERE so as to "get them used to it". (I believe the AF paid one woman a $3,000,000 settlement) The whole environment is a mind fuck, and there is no "safe word"... Personell, students and instructors alike, have died in SERE training. As I said earlier, in my own class a guy attempted suicide by biting his own wrists cause he didnt have anything to slash them with. People have also had permanent mental breakdowns resulting permanent disability from the experience - but those were substandard recruits not well suited to service so its good they were weeded out before experiencing the real thing. So no hippie we didnt think we were safe - they damn well meant to harm us, and they damn well did, and that training could mean the difference between life and death if god forbid I had ever needed to pull that yellow and black handle... By the way, you know who developed the SERE curriculum? OUR ENEMIES! Everything they teach in the resistance stage is something that our lovely warm and fuzzy enemies have done to us. SERE teaches us what to expect when we fall into their hands, sucks that they dont like it being used on them huh? Well, fuck them they started it.

JohnWarren -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 5:13:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I had no idea you went through that. How horrible. The silver lining to your experience is that you're able to tell others about your perspective: I hope we all take a page from your book. Thank you. I wasn't any hero. There were points where I would have handed my own mother over to them, but their intent was simply to torture. We didn't share any languages in common. I usually don't talk about it on board because of the danger of getting into a testosterone slinging match and the fact that confirming it online just brings the nay-sayers out in droves, but I'm pretty open in a face to face environment since (as one person put it) you don't get scars like that in a shaving accident. It did leave me with a life long aversion to torture but I never thought I'd be getting into debates in this country on whether torture should be legal or not. That saddens me deeply

kittinSol -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 5:17:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren (...) I never thought I'd be getting into debates in this country on whether torture should be legal or not. That saddens me deeply Understandably. It feels like a massive regression, like a lot of progress has just been obliterated. A real shame.

camille65 -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 5:26:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren (...) I never thought I'd be getting into debates in this country on whether torture should be legal or not. That saddens me deeply Understandably. It feels like a massive regression, like a lot of progress has just been obliterated. A real shame. It's become water cooler conversation, casual. Yes there is shock and disbelief among a lot of people but nothing seems to be done about any of it. Individuals may cry over it and feel genuine disgust/shame/horror but there isn't any power behind it. If it is becoming something that is accepted as part of the price for doing business with the world then it seems to me that it has been going on for a fairly long time. That the acceptance and blind eye started at the top and slowly oozed downward and into the general public. The government isn't shocked by this, or appalled by this or something actually would have come from it all. It would have been stopped when it became public but it wasn't. http://www.globalwitness.org/ is one of the sites that I keep up with and it makes me horrified when I read articles of things that take place here. This is not what we were supposed to be about, at least it isn't how I thought America was about. It feels dirty now. Crap. [:o]

kittinSol -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 5:32:51 PM)
To be fair, a lot of individuals and organisations are doing something about this. I agree that it's hard to get your voice heard when you're battling America's almighty government, but voices are still being raised. It's important that people never go quiet over such matters: if we shut up, they'll have won. I think I understand what you mean about feeling that this country's image has been sullied, but remember that apathy is one of the tyrants' main weapon.

Irishknight -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/24/2008 10:51:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren However, there real terror is you have no control. You are literally at the mercy of the merciless. That makes the pain much worse. You know it will go on and on until you die and soon you come to pray for that moment That kind of reminds me of my first marriage. Seriously, I don't condone torture for the sake of getting information. It is ineffective and wastes our time. I will be brutally honest though. If someone was to hurt a member of my family and I could get them alone, I would torture them using every trick I've ever read about before I killed them. It still would be wrong but that wouldn't stop me. I have a very vindictive streak.

kittinSol -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 4:26:04 AM)
At least, nobody can say they weren't warned [&:] .

LadyEllen -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 5:10:03 AM)
The one thing we can be assured of is that only definite terrorists and terrorist sympathisers are tortured. For if they were not such before the torture, they surely are following it. E

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