RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated...

RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

kittinSol -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 5:15:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The one thing we can be assured of is that only definite terrorists and terrorist sympathisers are tortured. For if they were not such before the torture, they surely are following it. No to your first sentence, we cannot be assured of their link to terrorism (Abu Ghraib was filled with ordinary people picked up in the streets at random, Guantanamo inmates are still being tricklereleased because no charges can be held against them five years after their capture). Secondly, even if an individual's link to terrorism was proven, it would not justify torture by any means. And no, JohnWarren's post demonstrated that human beings can retain their humanity even after having been subjected to the most inhumane abuse.

LadyEllen -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 5:22:02 AM)
Not you too Kitten? E

kittinSol -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 5:25:29 AM)
Plaît-il?

LadyEllen -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 5:41:15 AM)
The point was Kitten - that torture makes terrorists and terrorist sympathisers. No one after the process is well disposed to those who have tortured them. I was hoping to make the point with a bit more subtlety than most here understand. That the "yee-haw" brigade dont realise this, whilst at the very same time they get their knickers in a twist over maltreatment of westerners is just amazing. E

Irishknight -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 7:25:51 AM)
The "Yee-haw" brigade? I've come to expect something catchier from you. Something with a bit more snap.... but the meaning is still conveyed well. My belief is that torture is only good for revenge on a personal level. When you're done,you have to kill them or they will really want to come after you and kill you. I guess that would actually fit right in with what you said about torture creating terrorists.

subrob1967 -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 8:00:58 AM)
Torture or non torture aside, back top the topic... Hope...Change...Hope...Change...Hope...Change...Lather, rinse, repeat. How right you are for once Churro.

FullCircle -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 8:18:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight My belief is that torture is only good for revenge on a personal level. Not sure the people torturing Iraqis felt any better about what happened on September the 11th but I always assumed their idea of revenge was misdirated towards anyone they could use to put a face to terrorism in their heads. Ignoring the fact there was never any proven links between terrorist organisations and the then iraqi govenment. There was an upsurge to join the US army because people felt they needed revenge. You can't fight terrorism by conventional millitary means and that frustration just lead to more anger in those that joined up to seek vengance. "We are here now and I've been told by my govenment that you had a hand in what happened to us so fuck you iraqi scum take that." It's that mentality that lead to the horrors in Abu Ghraib and to try to pass it off a legitamate intelligance seeking was obserd and the rest of the world never fell for that line, why should anyone in the US?

DomAviator -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 12:21:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle You can't fight terrorism by conventional millitary means and that frustration just lead to more anger in those that joined up to seek vengance. "We are here now and I've been told by my govenment that you had a hand in what happened to us so fuck you iraqi scum take that." It's that mentality that lead to the horrors in Abu Ghraib and to try to pass it off a legitamate intelligance seeking was obserd and the rest of the world never fell for that line, why should anyone in the US? Sure you can fight it by conventional military means.... The terrorists all fit a specific profile - none of them are blonde swedish catholics for example. They are young islamic males. So you find a young islamic male, or better yet a group of them, you put the pipper on them and you squeeze the trigger till they dont get up. Then you repeat the process. Its VERY simple.... These islamic types can be found congregating in buildings called mosques... You wait for them to gather in there then put the crosshairs on the building, and light it up with the targeting laser. Wait for the BN to say "Pickles Hot" and you squeeze the trigger... Wait a few seconds and as the building falls down (kind of like our Towers did) you say "Target destroyed" and you start high fiving each other....If you suspect insurgent activity you round up a herd of those who fit the profile, you cable tie their hands behind their back, strip them, put hoods on their heads, throw buckets of ice water on them, hang them up and you beat on them for a few hours without even asking them anything... Then you tell them how there is no escape, allah cant help them, and the only way they are leaving is in a bag. Maybe even show them the corpse of the last guy who didnt have good intel....Impress upon them that they have no purpose to live unless they provide good intel and then start asking questions.... They will resist for a while but with enough pain, they will answer.... Then go get those that they name and repeat the process on them... Those who have provide flawed or no intel get shot, because dead insurgents tell no tales... Very simple process, and one I support wholeheartedly. In war there is NO SECOND PLACE WINNER.

camille65 -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 12:27:22 PM)
I thought that was an awful post.

FullCircle -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 12:36:56 PM)
It's comedy hour again, with your host DomAviator.

kdsub -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 12:42:37 PM)
No since ignoring his stance and mentality... it is often prevalent in the arm forces...not just in ours but all. Sometimes we need that mentality but it needs to be tempered with time before it is truly useful. You get a bunch of macho guys together and that is the way they think. I did when I was younger sad to admit. Butch

DomAviator -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 1:13:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 I thought that was an awful post. Camille, with due respect not everyone has the stomach for it but thats how it is. We operate schools that teach this approach not just to our own people but to those of our allied nations. Sometime google "School of the Americas" (Now called Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation) and that has been around LONG before Bush. Contrary to popular belief - Bush didnt invent America's entry into the torture game. We have been TEACHING torture to our allies since 1946. Here you go http://www.soaw.org/type.php?type=8 Read the history... All Bush did was change the name... President CLINTON you know the God of the Democrats is the one who started "extraordinary rendition" in which WE dont torture people we just fly them someplace to be tortured under contract. Ie - got a prisoner the CIA wants intel out of? Fly them to say Egypt so they can be boiled in camel shit there... War is an ugly game and there are no points for second place. It is about killing people and breaking shit, and whoever kills the most people and breaks the most shit fastest wins. We have schools for this. I dont come up with this attitude, it was TAUGHT to me because as one of my instructors at OCS said "You pukes are here to become a weapons system. You are no longer scummy college pukes, you are coming out of here as weapons. If you are too gentle to kill, if you are too kind to drop bombs on women and children I will find that out and get your ass out of here cause thats MY job." He was right, I didnt join the Peace Corps.

farglebargle -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 1:16:53 PM)
The only way Clinton looks good is if he's standing next to Rats like Bush and his gang of Loyal Bushies.

camille65 -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 2:57:42 PM)
Oh I know this is nothing new, I stated that earlier today on some other thread today in fact. I know that our government has been doing this in one fashion or another for a long time now. It still hits me as awful though. Awful for different reasons. That people think think this way "So you find a young islamic male, or better yet a group of them, you put the pipper on them and you squeeze the trigger till they dont get up. Then you repeat the process. Its VERY simple.... " The fact that people teach others to think that way, especially bothers me. That there is a need for people to see through that view is truly awful. Sometimes I see it like this, the pile of crap we are sitting in has been built with so many lies.But it doesn't matter that its built on lies, it just doesn't matter that people are saying it isn't okay. The sheer waste of life DA, that awful awful waste of life makes me sad. There is a difference between knowing things have to be done, and glorifying those things.No I have not been there or fought, yes if I were there you bet your ass I would be hoping for perfect aim. But I would not get off on it or find it in any way as anything other than awful.

DomAviator -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 4:08:04 PM)
Camille, I understand and sympathize. But peace is not human nature. Depending on your views on such things - we have had warfare since Cain killed his brother or since Og the caveman bashed his neighbors head in with a rock cause his cave had a better view. Eventually, we turned the art of killing each other into a profession and certain people stepped up to do the dirty work so that others dont have to - in Japan they were Samuri, in England Knights, etc... See the thing that the pacifists or "cant we all get along" crowd dont get is that the warrior feels no remorse. I posted some YouTube links to gun camera film from Iraq. Those pilots dont see it as am "awful waste of life" They will sit around the ready room watching that - eating popcorn , laughing, and wisecracking. In 1991 I had a bombadier who targeted the ass of an Iraqi soldier who was bending over to tie his shoe. It was absolutely imperative to him that this guys ass be laser targeted. Obviously that didnt mattter cause anyone within 200 yards was gonna be killed on detonation - but "watch me put this one right up his (racial slur) ass..." was funny and made the film more entertaining in the readyroom... The people who do the work love it. We are conditioned to from day 1. We run while singing cadence songs about killing kids, and how getting a pregnant one counts as two, that napalm sticks to kids, etc... The whole process is intended to desensitize us, and to make it so that we dont have the sense of moral reason that you seem to need to. Our job was to kill people we never even met, because somebody with higher rank told us to, because they were over the wrong line on a map wearing the wrong clothes and that was that. There is no room for moralization or interpertation or humanity. Our job was to kill the enemy, and it doesnt matter if its built on lies. As far as a Naval Aviator, or a Boomer Captain, or an Air Force misseleer is concerned - President Bush not liking Saddams moustache would be a good enough reason to drop nuclear weapons and kill every man woman and child in Iraq. The people doing the fighting dont need a reason just orders and they arent complaining. Did any of those soldiers in the Abu G'Raib pictures look the least bit unhappy? No, they were smiling and giving thumbs up cause they were having fun... and thats how I felt when I watched my 18,000 pounds of bombs level a whole neighborhood.... We will never know peace its not in the human nature... All kidding aside the human animal is a predator - a vicious predator. I just accept what I am...

Lordandmaster -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 4:35:52 PM)
Are you kidding? You weren't waterboarded. You knew it was simulated and you knew it would stop before you died. quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Waterboarding is not torture, its scary and unpleasant yes but it leaves no long lasting effects. Ive had it done to me in SERE.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 5:07:01 PM)
I don't really know why torture became the focus of this thread. [8\|] My two OPs are about the lies told in the run-up to the Iraq War/Invasion and how Bush should ultimately be held accountable for the lies that have cost so many so very much. Some have opined that we should move quickly beyond concerns about whom to hold responsible and yet that seems so odd to me. We have right-wingers endlessly talking about personal accountability all the fucking time. And yet when it comes time to talk about Bush they want to give him a pass - as if the greater the crime the easier we should be on him. I feel the exact opposite way... I think that for the future good of this country we MUST hold Bush accountable. He may be just the figurehead of the movement he represents, but it would send an important message to the world community that Bush was an aberration and that he will be held responsible for his crimes against humanity. Now, does anyone really disagree with that? And if so, why?

kdsub -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 6:25:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I don't really know why torture became the focus of this thread. [8\|] My two OPs are about the lies told in the run-up to the Iraq War/Invasion and how Bush should ultimately be held accountable for the lies that have cost so many so very much. Some have opined that we should move quickly beyond concerns about whom to hold responsible and yet that seems so odd to me. We have right-wingers endlessly talking about personal accountability all the fucking time. And yet when it comes time to talk about Bush they want to give him a pass - as if the greater the crime the easier we should be on him. I feel the exact opposite way... I think that for the future good of this country we MUST hold Bush accountable. He may be just the figurehead of the movement he represents, but it would send an important message to the world community that Bush was an aberration and that he will be held responsible for his crimes against humanity. Now, does anyone really disagree with that? And if so, why? SugarMyChurro I think you know my views on Bush...but you must remember even now a good portion of America still believes in him...certainly they still believe in the Republican Party. They may believe he is not doing the best job but you will not convince them he should be prosecuted. Same with the congress there is not enough will to impeach. So do you spend your time alienating those people with useless charges or do you move on and get the right people elected who will change our direction? It will be hard enough to beat McCain with out looking vindictive in attacking Bush…That may just get 4 more years of a Republican President. Butch

kittinSol -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 6:30:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So do you spend your time alienating those people with useless charges or do you move on and get the right people elected who will change our direction? Useless charges? Certainly not useless. These people spent their time alienating everybody else (including the rest of the world): if it worked for them, it will work for 'us'. The political will is there, and that's where those charges will become very, very useful.

kdsub -> RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... (5/25/2008 6:36:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So do you spend your time alienating those people with useless charges or do you move on and get the right people elected who will change our direction? Useless charges? Certainly not useless. These people spent their time alienating everybody else (including the rest of the world): if it worked for them, it will work for 'us'. The political will is there, and that's where those charges will become very, very useful. I wish we could come up with a good bet...[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m16.gif[/image]

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625