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MasterFireMaam:  As for totally unacceptable behavior, you left out felonies that can have very negative affect on groups as far as who the gov does and doesn't watch. People who are convicted sex offenders for more than sex in a park or something and people who look at the wrong sort of porn (the kind with unmentionables) should be handled carefully. Yes, there are ways to channel those urges into something more acceptable and healthy, but the group as a whole has to assess the risk.

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ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

FR:  This is a comment on Lady Pact's statement "Sorry, Michael, but I can't go for it.
Hell, I had two glasses of wine at the last board meeting.  By your standards, I'd be banned. I am working on a longer reply to the whole thread (who knows if I'll ever post it?) but LP's comment deserves more discussion:
 
This is the problem with "zero tolerance" rules.  So LP gets "banned" from a group she helps run because she's deemed to have combined play and alcohol?   A couple gets thrown out of a dungeon party because they violate the "no breath play" rule when the Top holds her hand over the bottom's nose and mouth for about 20 seconds (yes, I've seen that happen).  An ill-trained DM confuses age play with actual play with an underage person, and disciplines a couple engaging in baby/preschool fantasy (ditto - I've seen it).  If you draw black lines as to appropriate behavior, and those black lines are any more than basics such as "Over age 18," you are going to step on someone, someday.  Now the issue is who do you want to step on, and who is an inadvertent victim? 

E.

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

But what about the following

• Asks the dominant repeatedly to play with doms partner and refused, then starts approaching submissive?  (no is supposed to mean no, some leeway but at some point this is harassment right?)
  
• Touching.  This is difficult, slack must be given to newbies but at what point is the line drawn?  Clearly someone who does it often should be thrown out but where is the grey area?
  
• Violates boundaries?  To me this is easy, if someone either gets violated frequently or violates frequently, they are not ready.  In fact the only person I have thrown out was a submissive who always seemed to get her limits violated.  If that happened today I would probably require her to negotiate prior to any play AND have a third party sit in on those negotiations.
  
• Violates scene boundaries - this is tricky as some people SET poor scene boundaries, there is always the little clique that plays with each other and wanders in and out of their scene.  Newbies often mistake that for permission and enter the scene at which point the drama ensues as they become indignant.  That I can forgive, for ME, what drives me nuts are people who talk loudly near quiet scenes but that isn't a high crime.

These are the really hard ones

• Personal relationships are filled with drama - I was guilty of this, I ripped out a few hearts, one went gay I think and another I know moved out of state.   At what point is someone to broken to allow in?  I certainly was in some ways but at the same time I have grown immensely due to being in the scene.
  
• Goes after fresh meat-I tend to end up with partners who are new to the scene although my last had been in longer than I had.  Where is the line past which that behavior is predatory?
  

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These things go past simply maintaing basic order in a social enviroment and move into policing and monitoring adult interactions.

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And how adept are real predators at using black and white rules as protective coloring...

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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These things go past simply maintaing basic order in a social enviroment and move into policing and monitoring adult interactions.

They do indeed.  However, given that many of the interactions within a BDSM-oriented social environment might have an appearance of conduct that would be illegal in a vanilla environment, some level of policing becomes inevitable--either by group members or by actual policemen with badges, guns, and news crews in tow.

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Obviously someone who does any of the following

• Shows up drunk/stoned (first offense turned away, second banned)

Drunk isn't the same as having a glass or two,  I go to events where wine is served a bit before the party begins.  It is interesting to see how anal retentive people must think I am when I am in fact usually the pariah on these issues rather than the flag waver.

But what about the following

These are the really hard ones

Perhaps people missed those two lines, they were intended to ask for discussion ABOUT them, not a referendum of whether or not they should have a zero tolerance rule behind them. 

I would HOPE that we can limit the scope of this discussion to a POSITIVE intent, regardless of whether you agree or not.  This is about setting useful standards, not creating harems, happy hunting grounds, my way is the right way, etc. so please keep that in mind when posting. 

Perhaps I should have put this part in bold.  It is interesting how a few have taken it to attack me for daring to have an opinion rather than explaining how they would deal with a similar issue.

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I don't think that "he said she said" should apply to banning anyone.

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael



Lastly, I find it interesting that some of the harshest critics of the scene and who complain constantly about it being filled with predators are posting here most adamantly against rules.  

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael



Lastly, I find it interesting that some of the harshest critics of the scene and who complain constantly about it being filled with predators are posting here most adamantly against rules.  

I smell straw...and that other barnyard odor.

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ORIGINAL: Leatherist

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael



Lastly, I find it interesting that some of the harshest critics of the scene and who complain constantly about it being filled with predators are posting here most adamantly against rules.  

I smell straw...and that other barnyard odor.

Rules of public conduct are a good thing. So long as they aren't set up to empower a "ruling clique".

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

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ORIGINAL: Leatherist

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael



Lastly, I find it interesting that some of the harshest critics of the scene and who complain constantly about it being filled with predators are posting here most adamantly against rules.  

I smell straw...and that other barnyard odor.

Rules of public conduct are a good thing. So long as they aren't set up to empower a "ruling clique".

Or for predators to use as a 'Won't somebody think of the newbies' flag to wrap themselves in, and cull the competition, as well as keeping out those who might actually suggest to newbies that they open their eyes.

Bottom line is that bad people go where the victims are... and as brought out in a previous thread, that is both on line and 'in the scene'.  Attempting to paint either one as 'holy ground' sets my alarms off big time.

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Bottom line is that bad people go where the victims are... and as brought out in a previous thread, that is both on line and 'in the scene'. Attempting to paint either one as 'holy ground' sets my alarms off big time.

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Exactly. And it is this sort of selectively enforced bullshit that made me leave the public scene here. Where if you were a buddy to "the powers that be" you could damn near get away with murder-and if you bucked them-they would get on your case for the slightest reason-or none at all.