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Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/24/2005 9:43:14 PM   
severinseverin


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Joined: 9/4/2005
Status: offline 		Hello,

I'm reading an essay called "Coldness and Cruelty" by Gilles Deleuze. Its thesis is that sadism and masochism do not exist as opposites in a dialectical unity (thus, there is no such thing as sadomasochism per se). The authors basis his argument entirely on the works of Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch.

For instance, the contract seems to play a large role in the situations of Masoch. The contract is often architected by the would-be slave, the strict terms of which prompt a metamorphosis of the dominating woman. The sadist of Masoch exists as a representative of distinctly feminine forms - either the Aphrodite, who exerts power through her charm, or the sadist, who willfully inflicts suffering and dominates directly. There is always a transition from the Aphrodite to the sadist, which the contract is partially responsible for. The sadists' modus operandi is "the supression of sensuality."

On the other hand, the libertine of Sade represents neither of these forms. Instead of being a negation of any particular feeling, the sadist in Sade wants to drive out all emotional content - "the negation of feeling."

The coldness exhibited by the sadist in Sade differs in this way from the coldness exhibited by the sadist in Masoch. At the core of the coldness in Masoch lies a supersensuality that awaits the end of the current ice age that separates the sexes. As a resolution, Masoch often introduces the androgynous Greek male who conspires with the torturess and pushes her to new extremes - representing a historical resolution to the sensuality of ancient Greece and certain pagan traditions with the coldness of modern Christianity.

This is all based upon works of literature alone, of course. I am wondering if anyone perceives any of this in the real world? That is, does the sadistic ideal of the maschist exist distinctly from the notion of "true sadism" (whatever that means). Also, could it be that sadism and masochism as we know them exist as an expression of a repressed sensuality that exists in modern times?

Or perhaps this is all nonsense?
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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/24/2005 9:45:21 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		Reading Gilles Deleuze is a good example of masochism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: severinseverin

I'm reading an essay called "Coldness and Cruelty" by Gilles Deleuze.


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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 7:46:09 AM   
thetammyjo


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Status: offline 		the terms themselves came from these "works of literature" so it makes sense to study them in that context.

Also is the author looking at now or at literature?



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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 8:02:18 AM   
MasterRobert1


Posts: 225
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		Rather than sadist or masochist, I prefer the term algolagnic as being more descritpive: gratification derived from inflicting or experiencing pain. There is active and passive algolagnia. The active algolagnic enjoys the inflicting of pain; the passive algolagnic enjoys the experiencing of pain. I can classify myself as an active algolagnic. I know a lot of negative connotations are attached to the words sadistic and masochistic. I know a slave who says she isn't masochistic, she just enjoys being whipped and torture et cetera; she likes pain. She just doesn't like the term masochist! Algolagnia is a term most people are more willing to embrace.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 8:29:53 AM   
OscarHargraves


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Status: offline 		I'll leave this one for ES2. She has the right degree to answer you.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 8:41:39 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OscarHargraves

I'll leave this one for ES2. She has the right degree to answer you.

Wow, thanks for the vote of confidence. However, Lam tends to have the best references. It always amazed me when the other students and professors could pull references and quotes out of their back pockets. I'm far better at getting to the core of issues and recognizing the process behind them.

For what it's worth, I don't think sadism and masochism are really connected any more than one person loving seashells is connected to one person loving horseshoe crabs.

It has long been a theory of mine that SOME of the extremist play we do is attributed to the puritanical social pressure that we have upon us. However, even if bdsm play became completely accepted and normalized in society at large, you'd still have people doing pain play and extreme types of stuff. We like to play.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 8:42:03 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		It's not one or the other, ES. You have to be able to do both.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

It always amazed me when the other students and professors could pull references and quotes out of their back pockets. I'm far better at getting to the core of issues and recognizing the process behind them.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/25/2005 8:47:27 AM >

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 2:12:26 PM   
severinseverin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRobert1
Rather than sadist or masochist, I prefer the term algolagnic as being more descritpive: gratification derived from inflicting or experiencing pain. There is active and passive algolagnia. The active algolagnic enjoys the inflicting of pain; the passive algolagnic enjoys the experiencing of pain.


I'm wondering if you could elaborate on this a bit more. Speaking from a dictionary point of view, all of these terms seem to be synonymous. However, we certainly do not wish to speak from such a viewpoint, as the reality of the situation is much more complex. Specifically, what is the difference between, say, a passive algolagnic and a masochist?

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 2:15:45 PM   
severinseverin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Reading Gilles Deleuze is a good example of masochism.



Some of it flows very nicely, but there are rather hazy portions that make references to Hegel. In general, I find Hegel and most ideas connected with him quite mysterious!

Also, there are many references to Freudian psychology that I am not privy to. The essay, I believe, is a response to the formulation of the term 'sadomasochism' by the Freudian school of thought.

Being something distantly related to a masochist (the correct term, I think, depends on whatever resolution I find to this little word problem), I suppose that what you have said is quite correct =).

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 2:28:29 PM   
severinseverin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

For what it's worth, I don't think sadism and masochism are really connected any more than one person loving seashells is connected to one person loving horseshoe crabs.


I think that you agree with the thesis of this essay, albeit in a rather extreme way. I agree with you in a sense, but I think the general problem is much more difficult. For instance, I don't think that the various flavors of what we would call 'masochism' are all derived from some more basic inclination. Thus, not only are we faced with various flavors of sadism relating to masochism, but indeed, various flavors of sadism relating to various flavors of masochism. Of course, to the credit of the essay, the focus is on a particular presenation of sadism and a particular presenation of masochism by two distinct authors. In the effort to break down a simplistic view of 'sadism as the opposite of masochism,' Deleuze is doing a pretty good job.

quote:


It has long been a theory of mine that SOME of the extremist play we do is attributed to the puritanical social pressure that we have upon us. However, even if bdsm play became completely accepted and normalized in society at large, you'd still have people doing pain play and extreme types of stuff. We like to play.


Reducing all variations of play to a single social structure would be rediculous. However, consider, say, the schoolteacher fantasy that some have. This could not exist without a tradition of authoritarian schoolteachers, which has something to do with the nature of the scholastic method, which in turn, was emphasized by Christian philosophers.

The point: pleasure taken in the physical experience of pain could exist without this historical progression. I am wondering if the submission and humiliation aspects are intimately tied with the social order.

Standard disclaimer: I make no garantee that any of the preceeding ideas are not nonsense.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/25/2005 9:40:07 PM   
Wolfie648


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quote:

That is, does the sadistic ideal of the maschist exist distinctly from the notion of "true sadism" (whatever that means). Also, could it be that sadism and masochism as we know them exist as an expression of a repressed sensuality that exists in modern times?


If a peanut falls from a tree does it make butter?

(Yes I know peanuts grow underground)

Seriously though you need to relax.

D (owner of j).



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Possibly.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 3:27:39 PM   
MstLauren


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Joined: 8/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I'm reading an essay called "Coldness and Cruelty" by Gilles Deleuze. Its thesis is that sadism and masochism do not exist as opposites in a dialectical unity (thus, there is no such thing as sadomasochism per se). The authors basis his argument entirely on the works of Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch.


At the risk of getting in over my head here, I am going to share my take on this thread.
I often explain to people that I am a Sadomasochist, which I use in the sense that I enjoy inflicting “pain” on someone who enjoys “pain”. I get no sexual pleasure from hurting someone that is not aroused by the sensations I am giving them. Of course, that is true about 95% of the time, since I do enjoy some amount of inflicting more pain than a submissive can process as pleasure. I think a lot of that relates more to the pride I get from their efforts to please me and as such is as much about D/s as S&M. Of course, that 5% is the hottest part of my sex life. My last submissive HATED canes and I used then only for punishment. Some of the time (but NOT all) I would find myself becoming aroused while I was punishing her,
I know that some people in this lifestyle would say that the only time I was being “true” Sadist only 5% of the time since that was the only time she was experiencing pain. The way I see that viewpoint is that a sadist would never be happy with a masochist since it was not pain to them. Stuff like that smells like semantical nonsense and makes my head hurt.
So I would have to say Sadism and Masochism do exist as opposites in a dialectical unity if we are speaking of consensual activity. But perhaps you are right and all this is nonsense.


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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 3:42:17 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Let me throw something in the mix to make it all more complicated ;-) I'm sadistic that way...

Algolagnia: Form of sexual perversion in which the infliction or the experiencing of pain increases the pleasure of the sexual act or causes sexual pleasure independent of the act; includes both sadism (active algolagnia) and masochism (passive algolagnia).
Source: http://www.books.md/A/dic/algolagnia.php

I started a thread on it a while back if it interests you.

- LA

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 3:54:58 PM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		I like to cum...every chance I get. Sometimes I have to take my problem/pleasure in hand. Recently I was having a problem. I didn't want to whack my weenie while I was jacking off, but I did. Why, because I wanted to wake it up and I couldn't cum. The pleasure of striking it, turned me on greatly, as I love to stike! I inflicted pain upon myself...as a Sadist would someone else. Damn that shiat hurt too!
On the flip side, the pain made my wiener erect...and ready to spill forth the juices of excitement. OMG, I thought why am I enjoying this pain. I usally hate anything to do with it. Well, because I inflicted it upon myself. I then took nipple clamps and attacched them to my balls...youchie

Am I a Sadomasochist?

NO,...Just a horny fucker who likes to jack off.

Gawd, you guys take yourselves way too seriously here!

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 4:10:37 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

Gawd, you guys take yourselves way too seriously here!


Perhaps from your perspective. From my perspective, people are being analytical which I consider to be a very good thing.

- LA

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 4:38:19 PM   
MistressDREAD


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quote:

The author basis his argument entirely on the works of Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch.

hmmmm very narrow minded of this author.
I disagree with the thesis based off of My Own life.
fastlane Id prefer whaking your wanker till it stopped
cumming and you dry ejaculated and cunvulsed begging
for numbness wit a smile you closet masocist. bet that lil
pecker wouldent piss for a pot nor piddle in pleasure a while.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 4:40:31 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Status: offline 		Dread!! You are one eeeeeeeeeeevil bitch, you know that? ;-)

- LA

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 4:46:03 PM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
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Status: offline 		yeah, yeah, yeah, promises, promises......you SADIST!

I on the other hand have my nice LARGE PECKER in warm mitten about now, and am preparing it for the shock of it's life.....not that you would be interested....would you?

Kevin

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 4:48:19 PM   
MistressDREAD


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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 5:13:38 PM   
severinseverin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstLauren

I get no sexual pleasure from hurting someone that is not aroused by the sensations I am giving them. Of course, that is true about 95% of the time, since I do enjoy some amount of inflicting more pain than a submissive can process as pleasure.


If we are to speak in some of the terms that have been established, it would seem you are a sadist in the spirit of Masoch rather than Sade. The sadist of Sade immediately loses interest if the receiving party experiences pleasure from their activities.

As I've said before, this is definitely a false dichotomy. However, it makes for some good intellectual masturbation. I suppose orgasm denial for me would be to prevent me from thinking, somehow.

(in reply to MstLauren)
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