RE: Self-Esteem (Full Version)

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ExistentialSteel -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 3:53:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I'm curious how many people get into BDSM not as a cure all but to justify a natural urge or two ot three.....


Most of us would keep our hands down on that one, but you have to consider who you are polling when you poll. Most of the folks posting here are smart, knowledgeable and not lacking in self-esteem. However, there are few posters here in relation to the large number of members on CM. My simple observation is that many subs do think this world is going to make theirs understandable and tolerable.

Although, I'm not a psychiatrist and do not try to deceive myself because I took psych courses in colllege, I do think that you can enter into a relationship with such a person and try to build their confidence. Not everything requires a medical doctor of psychiatry. Common sense mentoring works well for me.

Is something like this easy...hell, no. I agree with the above remarks that you are asking for a lot, but it can be rewarding to have a sub tell you that she is so much more confident and happy in real life. (assuming she is being truthful...:)



sunshine333 -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 3:59:43 AM)

i agree with you completely merrymasochist! i like to think that i bring something valuable to the table when entering into an M/s relationship. and i don't consider a big heap of problems valuable. i know that there are doms out there, though, that do. as odd as that seems to me. they have a need to "fix" people. makes them feel powerful and useful perhaps??

humbly,
sunshine



mistoferin -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 5:32:43 AM)

quote:

people with self-esteem issues have an underscore scream of "fix me and my life," when the truth of the matter is no one can "fix" another person, they have to fix themselves and want to fix themselves. From what I've seen, those with serious self esteem issues tend want that non-existant magic wand and run for the hills when it's discovered that actual effort on their part is involved.

From my own point of view, I can't imagine offering myself with the idea that I'm worthless and have no value. If I'm worthless and have no value, just what the heck am I offering to a dominant? A mess to be fixed? If I have no pride or sense of self-worth in myself, how could I recognize and find pride in my Dom? It's always seemed to me I should be offerening a Dom my strengths and talents that will enhance his life, not a basket of problems and issues that I expect him to fix. My strengths, talents and value become his and if an issue or problem does occur, I should be capable of asking for help and then working to resolve with him rather than looking to him to be my cure-all.


merry, you are dead nuts on target.

Self esteem is not something that can be given to you by a Dominant, or by anyone else for that matter. While Dominants can and should provide positive reinforcement and compliments due.....so should anyone that you are involved in a relationship with. But the bottom line is that you could have a line of a million Dominants doing exactly that but unless you believe it inside of your own head....you will still have self esteem issues. It is not something that comes from without....it comes from within. Hence the name SELF esteem. If you do not believe in your own value and worth you have to find that somewhere within yourself and not expect to get it from someone else.

Low self esteem creates a trickle down effect that touches every aspect of a person's life. It makes them needy, unpleasant people to be around. They require constant energy to be expended in picking them up and getting them through their day. While I have met Dominants who seem to be drawn to these types, they are generally Dominants who a) do not have their own lives together or feel very good about themselves and need to feed off of the adoration of someone who is even lower down on the emotional ladder, or b) severely stuck in a white knight mentality. Most Dominants who I consider to be worth their salt are more attracted to submissives who's lights shine brightly and who carry themselves with confidence and pride.

Why any Dominant would want to say "That is my sub...the withdrawn one over there in the corner...or the one who is clinging to my leg for dear life because she/he lacks the confidence to leave my side" is just beyond me.

I will say once again, a solid relationship requires emotionally healthy people to make it work....whether it be vanilla, D/s, M/s or BDSM in nature. This lifestyle is not the place to come to get "fixed". Fix yourself and you will find that relationships and life are far more rewarding.



Quivver -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 6:02:53 AM)

It's self esteem that makes me hear that tired old line of "your no Sub"

Q



krikket -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 10:52:51 AM)

i have to admit that about the time i discovered D/s my self-esteem was at a pretty low point. As strange as it may seems, however, it was the things i was reading, learning and doing that actually brought my self-esteem up a little. It wasn't until my first Master put his foot down, though, about me making any disparaging remarks about myself that real progress was made. He told me that by putting myself down i was, in fact, showing how little i trusted his judgment and his abilities as a Dom. It took a bit, but it worked pretty well, and for that i will always be greatful.

regards
jimini



lonewolf05 -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 10:57:13 AM)

"I" am..told...everyone..should....s h o u l d have a self respect..and "I" have trouble with this...myself.
i have been abused by the world at large..telling me what a piece o' shit i am...3 wives..2 parents...my d.i. in boot...i have seldom EVER had ANYONE tell me i am a good person that i never deveolped a good feeling about myself.

now comes my 2nd Mistress. SHE has told me..Her hubby has told me..i AM good people...so it takes time to move past what i have heard for 52 yrs.

if any dominant accepts someone w/o self esteem......i warn them here n now........PREPARE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES!
you gotta pay to play and the piper takes a heavy toll at times.

my 3 cents
the wolf



JustaTop -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 10:59:51 AM)

quote:

He told me that by putting myself down i was, in fact, showing how little i trusted his judgment and his abilities as a Dom.


That's how I see it as well. But if a girl refuses to hear that, and make a real effort-at some point you have to walk away-or it begins to tear down the Dom as well. Which makes you feel like a real heel-because you had hoped for better,and know it probably only made things worse.

I lost my shining armour on the road somewhere,I don't travel that path any more.



justatoy2 -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 11:06:17 AM)

it could be possible that the Doms in question think that by attracting someone with no or low self esteem they can more easily mold them into what the Dom wants them to be. There are some Doms i know that do seek out people who have low self esteem to build them back up to be better. They enjoy being the knight in shining armour who has come to the rescue of this damsel in distress....just another take.



JustaTop -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 11:07:23 AM)

But sometimes the damsel in distress is a dragon in disguise.[;)]



Quivver -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 11:14:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

"I" am..told...everyone..should....s h o u l d have a self respect..and "I" have trouble with this...myself.
i have been abused by the world at large..telling me what a piece o' shit i am...3 wives..2 parents...my d.i. in boot...i have seldom EVER had ANYONE tell me i am a good person that i never deveolped a good feeling about myself.

now comes my 2nd Mistress. SHE has told me..Her hubby has told me..i AM good people...so it takes time to move past what i have heard for 52 yrs.

if any dominant accepts someone w/o self esteem......i warn them here n now........PREPARE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES!
you gotta pay to play and the piper takes a heavy toll at times.

my 3 cents
the wolf



Wolf, go look in the mirror, smile...... you know the things that make you, you are not bad or insignificant things. You've mentioned how service and using your talents for others make you warm, that in itself is something that is priceless in the world we have today. Chin up.

Q



DesertRat -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 11:33:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

I'd say these men were masochists.

Let me tell you about people who lack self esteem. They may seem like an easy out for someone lazy to control-but in the long run they can become very much like a vampire attached to your neck.

They end up being extremely high maintanence,and draining of physical and emotional energy.

For someone to ask for one shows me that they are extremely lacking in practical experience with D/s.


I think you've made some good points here. But as I sat here, sorting through my feelings on this issue, I found myself coming up with the usual cliches and more than a few insupportable ideas. In other words, this issue, like many others is more complex than it seems.

Here are some of my anecdotal observations:

Many people who say they have low self esteem actually are possessed of a normal ration of humility which, in contrast to the egomaniacal chest-beating they see around them, they interpret as low self esteem.

Some people who appear to project confidence or even overconfidence are actually compensating for a feeling that they really don't amount to much. I think they need external validation.

I once had a slave who was all over the board, esteem-wise. If you talked to her one time, she might tell you she was the most incredibly bright, talented, and sexy woman in the universe (which I personally think was true, but don't tell her I said that[:-]). If you talked to her during another time period, you would know that she considered herself to be a lowly, unworthy, waste of protoplasm. Most of the time she was in "realistic" mode, and seemed to know her worth while retaining a normal amount of humility.

My point is that what might appear simple is actually very complex. Seems so to me, anyway.

Bob



ICGsteve -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 11:37:57 AM)

I am with Justatoy2, doms looking for low self esteem subs probably do not know what they are doing, but then again they could be good doms who view themselves as "fixers". Either way I would think that these doms should be avoided.



KatyLied -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 11:42:04 AM)

quote:

Some people who appear to project confidence or even overconfidence are actually compensating for a feeling that they really don't amount to much. I think they need external validation.


True.



thetammyjo -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 11:48:14 AM)

I think that looking specifically for someone with low or no self-esteem would be a huge blinked red warning sign. Looking for someone like that sounds to me like wanting a ready made victim, not a partner who submits or serves you.

Now, being attracted to someone with low self-esteem is different. We don't have much control over what we are attracted too just want we do and how much we are aware of it. You might be attracted because it makes you feel like you can improve the person or teach them, you might be attracted to the idea of watching them grow and bloom.



FTopinMichigan -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 11:53:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

This is why I always get a bit bent at the amatuer shrinks out there.

Get a grip on your toppy egos people. Having a knight in shining armour fixation does NOT qualify you to fix someone else's head.

Leave it to the pros.


Wow, JustaTop, are you always this negative with a hint of nasty, or just having some really bad days? You seem to really punch with each post I read of yours.

I appreciate the take others have on situations. It can give insight into many things, and have us look internally toward ourselves (and toward others). Sure, this isn't a mental health page, but a place to chat about issues that effect us all. Giving an opinion is not giving medical advice, OR telling someone what to do.

I think ANY post should come with the disclaimer: Personal opinions expressed are for entertainment purposes only.

If anyone takes the words here as gospel...we're all in trouble....or in for a heck of a lot of fun! [;)]

K



JustaTop -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 12:00:08 PM)

quote:


Wow, JustaTop, are you always this negative with a hint of nasty, or just having some really bad days? You seem to really punch with each post I read of yours.


It takes a punch to get through to some people-not every post is like that. It got YOUR attention,didn't it? And isn't posting a disclaimer unneccesary? Are people so STUPID they can't see that ANY post is never more than a personal opinion?



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 3:41:27 PM)

It is my opinion that people want someone with low self esteem for one of two reasons:

1. To take advantage of that person. To teach them that their way is the right way/one true way/only way. To abuse or hurt them without worrying about them fighting back. To basically f*ck them and toss them out with garbage.

2. To "fix" them. To make their problems go away. To become more of a psychotherapist than a compatible partner or romantic interest.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 3:47:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSonnetMarwood

quote:

Let me tell you about people who lack self esteem. They may seem like an easy out for someone lazy to control-but in the long run they can become very much like a vampire attached to your neck.



My oh my that is so true. Been there, done that. They become so needy that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - they pester and pester and are passive aggressive...I call it being the "black hole of need" where it's an aura they wear. There's no where to go but down from there, and from my POV, there's nothing for me to do but walk away.


Been there, done that. And then went back again and did it again! Sometimes I'm a slow learner... but I'll never, ever go there again.

Sure we all have our insecurities. I have no problem supporting someone while they do work to become self-actualized. I will probably lean on them too. But I have my limits.

- LA



Padriag -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 4:11:19 PM)

In my opinion and personal experience I will state three things.

First, the submissives and slaves I have most enjoyed being with had reasonably good or better self esteem. They were happy, whole and generally healthy people. They were not looking to be rescued, fixed, saved, repaired, etc... and because of this, had more energy to devote to serving, pleasing, and enjoying happy times.

Second, a submissive or slave with low self esteem can sometimes be built up, provided a dominant has the patience for it and the trauma that caused the low self esteem wasn't too severe. Some things need professional guidance to deal with, but there are plenty of things that the lay person can cope with. My advice is, do your best and if you feel you are in over your head seek professional help. On a side note, I've know several "slaves" that upon rebuilding their self esteem no longer desired to be slaves, which brings me to my third point.

Third, the attraction of submissives and slaves with low self-esteem, of dehumanizing them, of identifying them as a "worthless cunt", etc. is that by reducing their self worth they are left with little will to resist whatever they are told to do, they are more vulnerable, more easily pushed towards extreme and taboo fetishes. They comply not because they particularly desire to do these things, but because they feel they are good for nothing else and that such is their lot in life.

While I certainly agree a slave is there to serve and please, I also believe the slave should willingly choose that life without aversive or destructive methods being used to induce or force that compliance. Its not the extreme fetishes I object to, its how some people pursue them. If the only way someone can get a slave to comply is by tearing them down to nothing, my opinion of such people isn't printable.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Self-Esteem (10/26/2005 5:15:54 PM)

hmmm. not really surprised by most of the responses here. first, i think everyone, regardless of their level of self-esteem, deserves love and/or a fulfilling relationship.

self-esteem is something i've always been short on...combine this with an at times crippling major depression issue, and a naturally submissive (can't say no, desperate to please) nature, you have a submissive who most Dominants would want to stay far away from. however there are Dominants out there whose extreme Dominant nature just makes it impossible for them to find mutual harmony or fulfillment with a person of high or even simply health self-esteem. my Master is one of those Men. He needs to be needed, not simply wanted. it's nothing he would have advertised on any profile, but it was definitely a part of his initial attraction to me and for us, it works this way. yes, i am very emotionally needy, yes i do fall apart easily, yes he does have to nurture me at times. however that does not mean he gives me an easy road. to the contrary, he uses me as he pleases and demands the most out of me...and if i were a person of healthy self-esteem, i would not be able to survive this relationship. i would want to run, rebel, escape to my freedom. but he knows that i would never even consider leaving him...not just because i love him, not just because i am his property, but also because of the simple fact that i literally could not survive without him. becoming his when i did literally saved my life. He does not wish to "fix" me. He does not want me to learn how to be a normal, typically healthy, independently functioning, confident and secure person. because i am just perfect for him as i am. would i crumble without him? absolutely. and that fact makes my Master very happy.



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