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Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 8:45:18 AM

JustaTop

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I often see this thing about "molding a sub" expressed by Dominants. I've even tried it myself in the past-before I realized it simply doesn't work in the majority of cases. And that it was more my ego ,and the lack of really good matches that drove me to that attitude.

In time, I got over it. What do you think about the idea that desperation can drive one to make poor choices in partners-thinking you can "fix" them to be better ones?

Do these settling arrangements ever really work out?

Post #: 1

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 8:51:14 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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It plays into the nurturing/passive sub/training/not having to be responsible/someone wants you SO much that they want to do the work to make you into something "completely theirs" that a lot of people who get into bdsm yearn for (not to mention the desire to be a white knight/rescuer/need to be needed from the dom side).

Fixing people really doesn't work. Most people barely have their own situations in order, and even then, fixing someone takes a very specialized skill set that takes more than being able to say good girl and throw a flogger.

On the other hand, training and shaping and re-conditioning and changing perspectives IS possible. I work with some of my partners on bringing out their inner strength, on behaving more assertively, on watching their mannerisms, their language, in learning how to ask the right questions, and many other things. This however is a LONG TERM PROCESS. I've been in relationships for about a year with them and I think we're just at the point of establishing a solid foundation to work from.

Do these situations work out? I'm sure some do. But on the whole, I think the whole line of "I will mold you into what I want" is mostly just romantic talk.

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 2

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 8:52:55 AM

JustaTop

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That's a good summation overall.

That changes are long term ones-not quick fixes to make the play more fun.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 3

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 8:53:55 AM

fyreredsub

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i don't think i can be molded---polished yes.........

i wouldnt settle and i wouldnt expect my master too either

there has to be a basic premise to start w/......... a zebra doesnt change its stripes.......

the personality can only be modified to a point-if the sub/slave doesnt really want the change, i imagine they would start being bratty(or some such negative behavior) just as if the master didnt feel the clay was molding right their would be perhaps more punishment

point being

neither would be happy in the long run b/c the dream ,so to speak, was dying

both would be unfulfilled and start to seek their needs be filled elsewhere
or remain committed and miserable

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 4

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 8:56:21 AM

JustaTop

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Another good point-you can not push someone beyond thier basic personality boundaries before reactance begins to set in. And punishing someone for BEING who they ARE, is a surefire way to end up holding an empty collar.

(in reply to fyreredsub)

Post #: 5

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:07:02 AM

Quivver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

Another good point-you can not push someone beyond thier basic personality boundaries before reactance begins to set in. And punishing someone for BEING who they ARE, is a surefire way to end up holding an empty collar.

But what IF *who* they are changes due to a Substance Abuse?

Q

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 6

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:08:10 AM

Padriag

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Do desperate people make bad choices... yes. I see it happen all the time, whether its the "dom" who offers collars to anything that will accept and chases after every sub that comes along... or submissive who throws themself at various "dreamy" dominants hoping someone will accept them. People do stupid things sometimes, and often live to regret it. Live an learn. Its one of the reasons I point out to submissives from time to time that the dominants they really ought to be watching for are those who have standards they won't compromise. A smart dominant will not accept just anyone, they know what they want and won't settle for anything less. While thats not the only trait they ought to be watching for, its on the list.

(Side Note: That's not to say dominants should be absolutely uncompromising, that isn't the case at all. We all make some compromises, but a smart dominant will not compromise on those things that are important to them... they only compromise on those things which they can afford to be generous about, those things that are not important to their own happiness. Personal example, I will not accept someone who smokes. I'm allergic to tobacco, trying to live with that would make me miserable, so I will not compromise on it. On the other hand having a college degree isn't important to me, if they do that's great, but if not its no big deal... so I can afford to compromise about their education level because that is not important to my happiness, even though I have a general preference that they have some education.)

Can you mold someone, yes... provided three things... that they had the necessary potential in the first place, you had the experience and wisdom to recognize that potential, and you have the experience and wisdom to actually do the molding. Its like someone who is tone deaf... you're just never going to make a concert violinist out of them no matter how much you make them practice, they lack the potential. Likewise, you could have a budding musical prodigy but if you don't know the first thing about how to guide the development of that musical talent, you still aren't going to get a concert violinist. Molding a slave is just another word for training a slave, its a form of teaching. It works if you can teach and if the slave has the raw potential to develop... in any other case you just get frustration and disappointment. And all that assumes the slave is genuinely willing to be trained... a topic which could start a whole other debate I'm sure.

Do settling arrangements ever work... in my experience no. Anytime I've settled for anything less than what I really wanted, whether that be in relationships, buying tools, or finishing a painting... I wasn't happy with it. Stick to your standards, you'll be happier if you do.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 7

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:09:14 AM

TexasMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

Another good point-you can not push someone beyond thier basic personality boundaries before reactance begins to set in. And punishing someone for BEING who they ARE, is a surefire way to end up holding an empty collar.

But what IF *who* they are changes due to a Substance Abuse?

Q

Since substance use and abuse is a hard limit of Mine, they wouldn't have been a sub of Mine in the first place.

TexasMaam

(in reply to Quivver)

Post #: 8

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:20:27 AM

JustaTop

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Joined: 10/5/2005
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Ditto-artifical chemical joy is a hard limit in this house.

Legal or not.

(in reply to TexasMaam)

Post #: 9

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:23:43 AM

JustaTop

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Joined: 10/5/2005
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quote:

Its one of the reasons I point out to submissives from time to time that the dominants they really ought to be watching for are those who have standards they won't compromise. A smart dominant will not accept just anyone, they know what they want and won't settle for anything less. While thats not the only trait they ought to be watching for, its on the list.

That's pretty much where I am now. I don't compromise on my core principles.

I feel there is nothing that says "player" ,quite as much as a wishy washy guy who will do whatever a sub wants-so long as he gets laid by doing it. They call it "bottoming from the top."

And it's not a particularly good sign of core integrity.

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/26/2005 9:24:13 AM >

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 10

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:30:00 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop
Ditto-artifical chemical joy is a hard limit in this house.

Legal or not.

What if it were prescription drugs like anti-depressants? Those certainly change "who" a person is, for the better (ideally).

And I personally need caffeine in the morning. And lots of people like alcohol. Not to mention nicotine. What about chocolate happy chemicals?

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 11

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:34:57 AM

JustaTop

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If it leads to negative behavior,I don't allow it.

Alchohol and nicotene are poisons. Cafienne is acceptable-in moderation. Meds are just that, medicine.

The defining factor is ABUSE of the subsance to escape reality.

There's no excuse for it-and a person who indulges that way is NOT going to be around ME.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 12

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:36:47 AM

plantlady64

Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline

Hello There,
I think many people settle for less than acceptable matches as far as perspective mates in the BDSM world and out.
I think we just get impatient with being lonely and do indeed lower our standards. We think we can fix the problems the other’s personality or lifestyle presents us with.
In my experience even if the patch is placed and the person conforms to our requests it's not a permanent thing.
Once both people get comfortable in the relationship the patch falls off and the defects come back. You are right back to where you started again 9 out of 10 times.
It's not human nature to change due to someone desiring you should. Real change comes from within not something forced on you.

I think all of us have at one point or another, sat in desperation, wondering where our Ms. or Mr. Right is and why they haven't come yet.
Some of us are strong enough to resist a Mr./Ms. Almost and some of us are not.
I've accepted people have their own paths & if their situation is a problem for me I steer clear as you can't change someone who does not want to change on their own.
Sincerely,
Sub suzanne

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 13

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:38:48 AM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I think we just get impatient with being lonely and do indeed lower our standards. We think we can fix the problems the other’s personality or lifestyle presents us with.
In my experience even if the patch is placed and the person conforms to our requests it's not a permanent thing.
Once both people get comfortable in the relationship the patch falls off and the defects come back. You are right back to where you started again 9 out of 10 times.
It's not human nature to change due to someone desiring you should. Real change comes from within not something forced on you.

Well said,I concur.

(in reply to plantlady64)

Post #: 14

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:39:06 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

quote:

Its one of the reasons I point out to submissives from time to time that the dominants they really ought to be watching for are those who have standards they won't compromise. A smart dominant will not accept just anyone, they know what they want and won't settle for anything less. While thats not the only trait they ought to be watching for, its on the list.

That's pretty much where I am now. I don't compromise on my core principles.

I feel there is nothing that says "player" ,quite as much as a wishy washy guy who will do whatever a sub wants-so long as he gets laid by doing it. They call it "bottoming from the top."

And it's not a particularly good sign of core integrity.

Exactly, if they don't have standards they're setting themselves up for topping from the bottom and you do have to wonder about their integrity. Actually, I look for the same quality in a slave... there ought to be some things she won't compromise about, its a good sign she has integrity and integrity means she's more likely to be reliable, dependable and trustworthy. Good qualities to have in a slave if you're looking for at the long term.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 15

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:40:52 AM

plantlady64

Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

quote:

I think we just get impatient with being lonely and do indeed lower our standards. We think we can fix the problems the other’s personality or lifestyle presents us with.
In my experience even if the patch is placed and the person conforms to our requests it's not a permanent thing.
Once both people get comfortable in the relationship the patch falls off and the defects come back. You are right back to where you started again 9 out of 10 times.
It's not human nature to change due to someone desiring you should. Real change comes from within not something forced on you.

Well said,I concur.

Hello Sir,
Thank You very much!
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 16

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 9:43:27 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop
Ditto-artifical chemical joy is a hard limit in this house.

Legal or not.

What if it were prescription drugs like anti-depressants? Those certainly change "who" a person is, for the better (ideally).

And I personally need caffeine in the morning. And lots of people like alcohol. Not to mention nicotine. What about chocolate happy chemicals?

Depends on what is important to the dominant. We already know how I feel about nicotine. As for alcohol, I don't like someone who makes a habit of getting drunk, but a social drinker I have no problem with (so no alcoholics for me, no habitual drunks, social drinkers are okay). As for caffeine... I just made a Pinky and the Brain post in another thread... this is what happens when I post before I've had my second cup of tea in the morning!

And frankly, I think you'd be delicious covered in chocolate.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 17

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 10:00:03 AM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
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Yes,I stopped beleiving in the "moldable buddy slave" quite a while ago. It really points to a delusional state. One that I have been QUITE amused to point out to these sort in person merely by using a few "play sessions."

And if even something that superficial is enough to do it,imagine how quickly the fantasy will crumble when faced with it every day?

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 18

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 10:41:02 AM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

probably no moreso than any young bride thinking she can "fix" her man.
it seems to be------seems-----in my male eyes......a female thing. it's that nurturing thingy.
in part n parcel it's ok..but always remember no matter whom is taken-on..there will always be a part of them at their core..no one can change.

i had 3 wives...and i was not compatible with any of them. and people change also. we both..all 3 ..wanted other things..that the other could not give.

part MY fault------part their fault.

same as in THIS lifestyle.
people can only TRY!

no one is absolutely perfect..dommes-doms--subs-slaves...male--female..young ..old...
it is just nice for ME that MY Mistress understands this and allows me to BE me........and She is herself.....as is Her hubby.
SO---------as 3 matured adults..........i do both worlds.......HERS and his.
i do the manly macho things with him..in a vanilla setting and do d/s with Her.

like today, he and i did a lot of outside manly heavy chores in the yards.

just recently him n i moved the boat and dock in for the winter.....
took us all of 9 hrs to do it.

my advice..........from D/s view AND vanilla life........everyone just be careful and get away from all that hoo for all s/m stuff FIRST and concentrate on daily REAL life...if THAT clicks.........."I" think the rest comes in line easier....

just MY 2 cents...

Owned and Operated..........by Ms Laura.........R/T...

the happy ole woofie

_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 19

RE: Accepting a mismatch? - 10/26/2005 10:43:46 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

I often see this thing about "molding a sub" expressed by Dominants. I've even tried it myself in the past-before I realized it simply doesn't work in the majority of cases. And that it was more my ego ,and the lack of really good matches that drove me to that attitude.

In time, I got over it. What do you think about the idea that desperation can drive one to make poor choices in partners-thinking you can "fix" them to be better ones?

Do these settling arrangements ever really work out?

I'd say this is actually a pretty common idea in the vanilla world.

A fear perhaps of not finding someone else so you have "make them work" or let yourself be made over?

A desire to get exactly what you want coupled with the realization that probably no one person is going to be that way from the start?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 20

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