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Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 10:29:54 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Letr me preface with the fact that my parents were both alchoholics,so I know more than a little about substance abuse and denial.

They divorced in 1963, and my dad died in a drunk driving accident in 1966. It took my mother until 1976 to get help in AA,and she did not make life easy for her three children before then-we walking on eggshells,wondering when they next explosion was going to come. We never quite knew why-she was a secret drunk.

So I know all too well what it is like to live under the influence of an unstable,drug addicted Dominant. It's anything but fun,or healthy. So here is the question,what CAN you do to get help for a Dominant in denial of a drug addiction problem?
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 10:34:50 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I really think this is just a life issue and not a Ds or vanilla issue.

Someone who is addicted and abusing a substance isn't going to act rationally towards it or admitting it.

The reality is that if you want the person to change, they have to want to change. I think since you're helping the dominant become better, it's like any other change.

In the end you have to decide if the relationship is fulfilling you or not.

(in reply to JustaTop)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 10:45:49 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		The problem with a connection to D/s being,they are in an even stronger denial postion.

The usual alchoholic doesn't have a rationale to "punish" challenging his or her denial.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 10:54:37 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop
The problem with a connection to D/s being,they are in an even stronger denial postion.

The usual alchoholic doesn't have a rationale to "punish" challenging his or her denial.

But how is this different than any other asshole dominant? You don't have to be abusing or addicted in order to be an asshole or punish unduly.

The situation remains the same- the person can accept the relationship or reject it.

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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 10:56:16 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		But what if they want to try to salvage the relationship? Walking away is rather chickenshit-do you face someone with an ultimatum? Quit,or I leave?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 11:03:17 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

But what if they want to try to salvage the relationship? Walking away is rather chickenshit-do you face someone with an ultimatum? Quit,or I leave?

There is no relationship to salvage unless the person is actively working to try and quit the addiction.

Walking away isn't chicken shit- it's smart. It's rejecting someone destroying other people's lives in addition to their own, it's saying that you do not accept abuse in your life.

Now, there is of course time to grow, abuse rarely is an 'on/off' switch, it's a progressive disease (or whatever you call it). There is a time and place to talk with the person, tell them the problem you have, encourage them to get counseling, work with them to change.

But that only goes so far. In the end the answer IS the ultimatum- quit or leave.

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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 11:05:35 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I concur,but just wanted to play devil's advocate once in the thread.

Thanks.

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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 11:09:19 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

But what if they want to try to salvage the relationship? Walking away is rather chickenshit-do you face someone with an ultimatum? Quit,or I leave?


I disagree, sometimes it's the only safe and responsible thing to do, to protect one's own life.

My mom went into recovery for drug addiction slightly less than a year ago. At that time I started to build a realtionship with her again. Before that I -had- to walk away, to keep myself sane.

If someone refuses to get help, if they refuse your help, you cannot keep offering indefinatly. I tried to support my mom and be there and help her get the help she needed, but when one is unwilling to do it for one's self, no outside influence is going to doing anything.

It wasn't chickenshit for me to walk away. It was the best move I coudl have made. I spent several years trying to parent my mother, which wreaked havoc with my life. By walking away I was able to pull myself together such that I could offer much better help, from a more stable possition.

For some people, they truly -must- hit bottom before they're ready to change. My mom had to realize that she was killing herself and damaging her family before she was able to take responsiblity for herself.

I hated walking away, but the question becomes when is it worth destroying yourself for someone who isn't ready to make the effort to change?

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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 11:11:38 AM   
xanderzzz


Posts: 24
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		I gew up with an alchoholic parent and have seen a sibling go down this path as well. While I think D/s probably helps in the denial part, I still think it still is a general life problem.

Like all addicts the only way for them to change is if they want to change. Alcoholics are notorious for their abiltiy to lie. To me you have to ask yourself will he want to change for himself or is he just going to give it lip service to apease you.

If he is sincere about changing his ways then I would say you should stay. If he is just going through the motions then you need to get out. It can be pretty easy to see the difference but sometimes the ones closest to the alcoholic can have denial issues of their own.

You have to decide if he will change. If he does not or will not even consider it, save yourself. It is not chickenshit but a strong act of courage.


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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 11:11:54 AM   
JustaTop


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quote:

For some people, they truly -must- hit bottom before they're ready to change. My mom had to realize that she was killing herself and damaging her family before she was able to take responsiblity for herself.

I hated walking away, but the question becomes when is it worth destroying yourself for someone who isn't ready to make the effort to change?


Agreed, look to my above posting about playing devils advocate. I went through the same thing with my mother.

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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 11:54:49 AM   
MistressFire70


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		You can't...unless you try an intervention. Go to a person who does these on a regular basis and consult with them. Family and friends will HAVE to be involved. Be prepared to follow through with the ultimatum.

Other than that, you really can't help someone who doesn't want help. It sucks, but that's the way it works. What you have to do is know the breaking point for yourself. How much is too much? Then, when/if that line is crossed, remove yourself from the situation.

Fire
Daughter of an alcoholic, former wife of an alcoholic


_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

(in reply to JustaTop)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 12:03:34 PM   
Kasia


Posts: 442
Joined: 6/25/2005
From: The Coast of Adria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I really think this is just a life issue and not a Ds or vanilla issue.


I agree with that.
Since I got interested in bdsm, I keep hearing that dominants should be at first in control of themselves. So, I would call that alchohol addict an abusive and controlling person, not a Dominant one.

My Mother too used to be extremely controling, although she was never an addict of any kind. She had the most awful fits and tantrums whenever things were not the way she imagined they should be. I dealed with the matter by leaving home when I was 15. Now, the only way I can handle her is to keep her frightened of my temper..... really something I hate and despise, but I just cannot deal with her in any other way.

It is altogether a tough question, especially when it is about your own parents. Personally, I believe only in "run away to save your own life from turning into hell" option when it comes to addicts. If you can.......

< Message edited by Kasia -- 10/26/2005 12:04:51 PM >

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I DO have profile - just lost an S somewhere along the way

Kassia

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 12:49:06 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I learned the hard way about addictive personalities. Silly me, when my ex told me he had been sober for 23 years, I interpreted that to mean "not an addict".

Everyone knows that endorphins are a kind of natural heroin, right? And guess what! Endorphins are way better than ten cokes and a bunch of candy bars for giving you that rush. What was I thinking? I can barely develop a routine, addictions are alien to my mental wiring.

So, now I know what a dry drunk is, and I know all about addictive personalities, denial, shifting blame, and narcissism. I absolutely refuse to deal with anyone who has issues with addiction. I am willing to support them and encourage their "recovery", but as far as relationships go, NEVER again.

Knowing when to cut losses is an important skill.

Ms F


(in reply to Kasia)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 12:52:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Everyone knows that endorphins are a kind of natural heroin, right? And guess what! Endorphins are way better than ten cokes and a bunch of candy bars for giving you that rush. What was I thinking? I can barely develop a routine, addictions are alien to my mental wiring.

I don't get endorphin rushes actually, I get adrenaline rushes. And frankly, given the choice between an easily accessible cold Pepsi in the morning versus an easily accessible person to scare the heck out of me every morning...I choose the former.

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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 2:18:54 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		For me this discussion of addictive personalities brings up the issue of non-chemical addictions. It seems this lifestyle is in many ways an ideal breeding ground for a classic addiction scenario.

My therapist continually pokes and prods around the idea that I am using sexuality and/or power dynamics in a potentially damaging or self destructive way. In an oh-so-neutral-and-non-judgemental way he asks series of questions that appear designed to lead me towards the idea that I am using sex, poly, and bdsm exploration as substitute for intimacy or an unhealthy escape or..or...SOMETHING. When my answers don't quite fit, he typically becomes baffled, scribbles some notes, and seems a wee bit disappointed he can't always find the unhealthy angle -- yet fascinated by it all. (No need to bash my therapist. He is quite capable. Besides, why would I select a "friendly" therapist that would only agree and reinforce me at every turn. The forced articulation is very helpful.)

However, even I must admit some things fit the profile....for me or for people I have talked with or observed. Preoccupation, ritualization, and perhaps even compulsion. The increasing desire for a larger and larger endorphin rush, adrenalin rush, or danger element. Reckless behavior in pursuit of the next "high."

So what do you think? Is sexual addition as "real" as alcoholism or drug abuse? What about the specialized sexual-or-non-sexual pattern of behavior found in bdsm? None of us would like to think we have a "problem", but isn't that true for anyone wrapped in an addiction?

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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 2:27:58 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Any behavior you can no longer use in moderation points to addiction.

When a former want becomes a NEED it's time to take stock of just why that is.

(in reply to Sensualips)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 2:31:59 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		But haven't I read over and over again from women and men that NEED to submit? And vice versa? To fulfill there very being and so on?

Moderation does not really seem to be strength of many heavily involved. But that is MY version of moderation which varies greatly from both my vanilla friends or my "hard core" friends.


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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 2:34:01 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I run from people that needy-they become sucking black holes.

I want a partner with a sense of reality-not some fool lost in an illusion.

(in reply to Sensualips)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 4:50:08 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		absolutely nothing you can do to make them stop.
they have to want to stop for themselves(and it won't happen till they hit bottom).

you can either deal with it(going to al-anon for yourself) till the situation becomes intolerable
or you can enable that person by continuing to lie to them (about their problem,ie your denial)and for them(to their boss or family)
or you can just leave and hope they drink themselves sick and decide they want to stop.

giving ultimatiums never works in any situation,i dont care what it is,they generally backfire.
at best they will try to control it when they are around you or sneak it.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to JustaTop)
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RE: Substance abuse and D/s - 10/26/2005 4:55:56 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		if someone used to be addicted to drugs and say became a pain loving bottom, the endorphins released are a rush or high...so in essence its the same thing.
its still a form of escape...
or say a cutter for example, they may not do drugs or engage in any bdsm activities but they are seeking release or escape from stress, a way to forget,
so they cut themselves..............

people can probably become addicted to anything...

if they have addicitve personalities to start with......anything that kicks the sensory motor system in,can do it...
chocolate, coffee, sex............the list can go on and on

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Sensualips)
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