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RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 7:04:44 AM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

That's your view, you're entitled to it.  Don't presume your view applies to everyone.


Hi Padriag;

I didn't intend to give the impression of any presumption on my part. That's why I said, "in my view."

What I should have explained further, about my view, is that someone who is emo and/or goth (they are not the same thing), is not just dressing, typically. It seems to me the clothing and make up is the outward manifestation and expression of what is going on within. MadRabbit correctly (in my view), said it was an issue not of appearance but of compatibility. Again, it seems to me, a "budding conservative entrepreneur" might find it difficult to relate well to the mindset behind the choice of goth or emo.

I could spray paint my beagles but they would still be beagles...barky and howly, tending to overweight and largely untrainable. And completely lovable.

I wouldn't spray paint my beagles.

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RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 8:01:32 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
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quote:

One of the young girls I met recently I liked genuinely as a person and was interested in seeing her again.


MadR, I agree with those who say you must have your own standards, and you should not deviate from them. What I have read in your posts is that you genuinely like this person. Unless you have a feelling you could possibly bond with her on a much deeper level, and you believe she has the personality that would make her the kind of sub you desire, I just don't see the point in worrying about what she looks like.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse.

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RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 8:29:04 AM   
Aanakaris


Posts: 310
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline 		I am with the group that thinks learning when it's appropriate to dress in different manners. Sure clubbing and hanging out are fine long in whatever you like to wear, but an upscale restraunt or trip to the theatre might not be.

Personally, in your shoes I'd be thanking whatever powers you beleive in that an intelligent, nerdy, attractive, independant, interesting woman  who has a self sense of style plus looks good in goth/emo clothes. If she was Asian  and had tatoos, it'd be my idea of heaven, conservative or no.

As far as compatibility goes, maybe you should find out more about her. If shes rabidly liberal are you, a self-professed conservative, going to be able to get along with her no matter how she dresses? Maybe goth types fear the sun, if your a hiking, outdoorsy type are you really going to mesh? There's alot more to compatibility than just style. I'd say pursue things but keep an open mind and communicate well.

Howard

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I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, It's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, And that enables you to laugh at life's realities.
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RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 2:25:47 PM   
MadRabbit


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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

MadRabbit correctly (in my view), said it was an issue not of appearance but of compatibility. Again, it seems to me, a "budding conservative entrepreneur" might find it difficult to relate well to the mindset behind the choice of goth or emo


When I say compatibility, I mean that in my relationships, the outward appearace of my girls is something I change based on what I find desirable. Usually the people I date have a style of dress similar to mine that I already like. Changing her dress to what I find desirable would require drastic change which leads me to beleive we aren't compatible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aanakaris
As far as compatibility goes, maybe you should find out more about her. If shes rabidly liberal are you, a self-professed conservative, going to be able to get along with her no matter how she dresses?


I've taken a couple of hits on the "budding conversative" thing so figured I would clarify.. I'm actually a moderate in my political views. The phrase "budding conservative entrepeneur" was meant to communicate a style of dress. I have a conservative professional style to me that has grown in the last year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

What I have read in your posts is that you genuinely like this person. Unless you have a feelling you could possibly bond with her on a much deeper level, and you believe she has the personality that would make her the kind of sub you desire, I just don't see the point in worrying about what she looks like.


I do have a genuine like for her on an internal level, but one of my "things" with my girls is having control over what they wear. When what I find desirable on a woman is so drastically different from what she finds desirable, it brings up the question of compatibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I am just reposting what Em said because I absolutely agree with it and saying the same again would have been boring.
I wanted to add that if you did decide to go through with altering her look because she had decided to submit to it - are you willing and able to pay out for a new wardrobe for her?  She may be willing, but unable to comply - think about how you would work that out.
 
the.dark.


Oh I certianly would pay for it and don't expect it to be anything but a slow process. I'm a realist. I know it seems like I am completely putting down her style, but it's not really the case. It's just a matter of my preference, what I like my girls to look like, and the fact that outrageous appearance styles are a turn off to me.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 3:21:55 PM   
charlotteS


Posts: 203
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline 		I think you put it very well when you said that one of your "things" is that you like to have control over what your girl wears.  This is something Master and I discussed before he collared me.  He told me he would have complete control over what I wear and would be changing my style over time.  For me it was exciting and even though I have struggled with it somewhat it was mostly been a positive thing in our relationship.

Discuss it with her from that standpoint.  Not "I hate the way you dress so can I change it?" Tell her you enjoy having control of your girls appearance.  Ask her how she feels about that?  Does she tie her identity into her clothes?  Why does she choose to dress the way she does?  Does she have self-esteem issues that would make her feel bad if you choose to change parts of her?  Does she find the idea exciting?  How much is she looking to give up to a Dominant partner and what would she see as potentially damaging?  If you have this conversation you'll get to learn a LOT more about her and hopefully she'll be able to see that you really do like her and want to figure out if you two could work together. 

Most Doms I know that I respect don't get things from me by making demands.  They get things from me by presenting things in a way that spark my submissiveness.  When Master tells me "You will never wear that skirt again" I feel owned.  If my friend told me "what the hell are you thinking wearing that" I would feel judged.  It seems clear to me that you actually do care about this girl so just make sure that comes across.  She may be upset and not willing to explore that type of submission and you'll know you aren't compatible (not because of how she dresses but because of the type of D/s interaction she is looking for) or she may be more intrigued by it then you think. 

If Master had said to me in the beginning "Cunt, you will have 5 new piercings, be planning for a tattoo, wear tight clothes and stripper shoes and eventually phase jeans out of your wardrobe"  I would probably have been angry and might not have agreed.  Not that he wasn't upfront, I knew the kind of styles he enjoyed on women.  But the whole idea behind it was that he wanted to take away my personal style and make me more his which I enjoy.  He also made sure to talk to me about this kind of stuff and make sure that I didn't feel like he wanted to change me because there's something wrong with me.  I didn't feel judged or that I wasn't pretty enough.  I felt happy that I could have one more way to be his completely.  Some people will feel like that, some won't.

Ok, enough rambling.  Good luck!

charlotte


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 4:44:35 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotteS

... and make sure that I didn't feel like he wanted to change me because there's something wrong with me.  I didn't feel judged or that I wasn't pretty enough.  I felt happy that I could have one more way to be his completely.  Some people will feel like that, some won't.

In my opinion, one of the more important points made in this entire discussion.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 5:40:51 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Instead of asking her how she feels about changing, why not ask her why this style. If her answer is filled with emotional content, then I think you'll have to accept that she isn't amenable to changing now. Which is not to say that should you explain you occasionally would like her to put on conservative business clothes and accompany you to business type things, and ask if she could do that knowing she would be bored silly.

But before you proceed further, ask her how she feels.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 6:18:21 PM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		something i learnt recently is the importance of being accepted for who and what you are, youre appearance, personality the whole package.  its saying - i like you and i respect you.  that doesnt mean that you have to completely love her fashion sense at the moment, but it does mean that you embrace who she is or who she is trying to be right now.

all of what you describe is transient.  the intrinsic things you like about her are the things that matter right now.

in time, if she becomes your sub then that look can be toned down a little - but it might grow on you, you never know you might adopt the goth yourself or find some happy compromise.

in the end its about ticking the important boxes and letting the rest slide for a bit until she feels valued and treasured by you.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 10:53:22 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Rabbit,

Little girls wear all that crap as a sort of emotional armor.  Figure out what she is protecting herself from, remove the fear, make her feel safe, and reap the rewards.

Also, make dressing up "your" way a game, a mask if you will and for now, allow her to dress "real" in times and places where it doesn't matter to you.  As Charlotte said, don't make her feel defective, let her know you see the beauty past ALL that crap, yours and hers and I think you have the skill to pull it off.  Do that and you will have someone who will be putty in your hands like you have never before experienced.

Stop and look at women who wear hair that covers their face, really watch them and how they interact with others, you can see them hiding from the world.  Look at women who expose their necks and faces...very different demeanor.  Same goes with people who have lots of piercings and tats, they are like the animals that adopt the coloration of another species that is actually poison.  Most are terrified inside and use that "coloration" to look fierce.  That armor is like on of those sci-fi things where you can't blast through but if you move slowly you can pass through.  Trick is to figure out what the fear is based on.

Also, things like goth and their ilk are rejections of the normal world, sometimes to piss mommy off, sometimes because a chick is bright AND hot and so uses the goth to hide/minimize the hot because she wants to be seen as more than a cunt delivery device.  A woman I loved dearly and had a deeply troubled relationship once told me to hurt me of how someone else had recently made her more naked than I ever had.  He had slowly and deliberately made her remove all her jewelry...it was a pretty hot story, pissed me off but oh man did a lightbulb come on for me.   Make her naked...and send pictures...

(in reply to lally3)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/2/2008 11:16:26 PM   
MstrVik


Posts: 122
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Little girls wear all that crap as a sort of emotional armor. 


Perhaps that would apply to more than 'little girls' then... While it might apply, I don't think it's possible to generalize about just this though. Some goth girls also DO in fact expose their face and neck, and some I've met has struck me as being very insightful and mature - as well as emotionally secure and accessible. - And for some it's simply a fashion statement; it's striking a pose, and not always much else to it... (as in that Madonna-tune, ya know...) - Getting to know someone is always a bit like peeling an onion... I liked that image of slowly removing all the jewellery etc., slowly becoming more naked and exposed; it's what it's all about really...

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RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/3/2008 8:59:39 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Hiya MR,

I think dominants tend to come in two camps; the first being the fixer-upper, the other being the ready-out-of-the-box.  It's a matter of preference, though I'm the fixer-upper type.

Having said that, there's only so much fixing up I can do.  As with any relationship, you have to weigh the good with the bad; is the amount of time you'll invest in this relationship going to be on par going to be agony?  Will you enjoy the time you spend getting to know her well enough to ferret out those demons?  Are you willing to maintain the relationship, if you find that the way she dresses and presents herself is an intrinsic part of her personality today, and not something she's willing to surrender?

Personally, if you don't find her physically attractive today, it's probably best to just stay friends (or maybe engage in a casual relationship of some sorts.)  Progressing into something more serious, you could end up (intentionally or not) exerting a great deal of pressure on her to become someone she isn't (or isn't ready to become yet.)  Even if you approached it in the most gentle and caring manner, she's still going to feel like you don't really want her but rather some idea of who she could be.  Unless this is a path she is receptive to (as charlotte was, as it was something we'd discussed thoroughly before even meeting in person) she could end up feeling very hurt, and you very frustrated.

Having said that, I've recently been involved for a time with a lovely girl, who while she hardly dresses outlandishly, neither did I feel she had much sense of style.  At 23, she'd never put on make-up before, never bought a pair of heels, never wore stockings.  She's an Asian girl who grew up in South Central LA, so she grew up trying her best to not draw attention to herself.  In just a few months, she's gone from dressing blandly all the time, to enjoying wearing leather corsets, heels, stockings, and make-up.  It's not something she does every day, but she's learned to enjoy it, and that is the essence of what you'll be trying to do: presenting a different manner of dress in a way that will make her feel good about herself.

Good luck with her, either way you go!

Stephan


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RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/3/2008 9:15:04 AM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		Fast Reply, haven't read the other responses yet

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Recently, I've gone back to searching and dating again since the ending of a long-distance relationship.
 
One of the young girls I met recently I liked genuinely as a person and was interested in seeing her again.
 
However, there is one incredibly huge difference between us and that is she has a style of appearance that is a mesh between a Goth kid and an Emo kid. A dog collor, ecentric amounts of jewelry, conspicous outrageous piercings, dark colored, baggy, worn-out clothing, and a freakish looking haircut that basically consists of long hair in the front and a buzz cut in the back.
 
 
 
ummm I have the same hair cut and I'm and office manager. I don't think it's freakish
 
quote:

 
 
As a budding conversative entrepeneur, this is pretty much the dymetric opposite of what I like my girls to be. In fact, it took a lot to keep my mouth from hanging half open at first sight of her.
 
But...
 
She has potential. She has a good figure and is not a bad looking girl. She could be absolutely stunning in the right dress with some good makeup, a much better haircut, and other femine products.
 
This might sound to be very shallow, but it's really not an issue of appearance, but rather more of an issue of compatibility.
 
If you, as a dominant, were presented with this type of scenario where the apperance and dress of a potential submissive would require major change for them to be on par with your standards, would you attempt to invest the time or in the face of such drastic changes, do you think it should be chalked to "non-compatible"?



My first question is... First off is she even interested or willing to compelety change her style and personality for you? 

She might love how she looks and feels that she is showing her indvidualism.

I understand wanting to mold a submissive into what you want her to be, but do you want suppress something she may feel is a big representivie of what she feels is her?

If you meld on alot of the more important areas other then her cloths and make up then yes I'd say it's worth persuing and seeing if she is willing to change her style for you. But I'd first off find out if she's interested enough in you to give up her style for you.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/3/2008 11:33:56 PM   
MasterZen22


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Progressing into something more serious, you could end up (intentionally or not) exerting a great deal of pressure on her to become someone she isn't (or isn't ready to become yet.) Even if you approached it in the most gentle and caring manner, she's still going to feel like you don't really want her but rather some idea of who she could be. Unless this is a path she is receptive to (as charlotte was, as it was something we'd discussed thoroughly before even meeting in person) she could end up feeling very hurt, and you very frustrated.




Very good point! With the benefit of hindsight I think that was the mistake I made with my very first slave (but hey I was 17 at the time, so I'm gonna cut myself some slack lol)

-Zen

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: One of those Hypothetical Scenarios... - 6/4/2008 4:14:18 PM   
SlaveSimone


Posts: 95
Joined: 3/17/2008
From: Denver, Co
Status: offline 		One way i would consider going about this, is to take her shopping  point out things that you like, and say something to the effect of  "You'd be smokin' in somthin' like this, I'd love to see it on you", and see how she reacts. IMO it seems like a better way to gage her willingness to wear such things, as asking some one if they'd be willing to change their style may cause them to get defensive and therefor might invoke an inaccurate response. Also, if you were to get her to try something super hott on, she may just have an epiphany and realize that wearing things that are form fitting and compliment you well can be a killer self confidence boost. Plus the positive reaction from you might strike a chord with her.
Anyways, what ever way you go about it, I'd say to just go for it, and give it your best shot

Good luck,

Simone

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 54
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