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RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/3/2008 4:57:24 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		If you have the slightest doubt as to the honesty of the arresting officers or those who might interrogate you, IOW any time you're arrested, ask for an attorney in front of as many witnesses as possible. They're a lot less likely to play any games that way.

Do not call a bail bondsman with your only call. Call your family or a lawyer. Worst case your lawyer can contact one for you.

Make sure the inventory of your personal effects is accurate and mark the document so the bottom of the list is clear.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/3/2008 5:01:56 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If you have the slightest doubt as to the honesty of the arresting officers or those who might interrogate you, IOW any time you're arrested, ask for an attorney in front of as many witnesses as possible. They're a lot less likely to play any games that way.

Do not call a bail bondsman with your only call. Call your family or a lawyer. Worst case your lawyer can contact one for you.

Make sure the inventory of your personal effects is accurate and mark the document so the bottom of the list is clear.


Exactly. It's worth repeating.

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RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/3/2008 5:19:09 PM   
servantheart


Posts: 960
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

My sister-in-law was arrested and accused of stealing money from her job.  She was put into a room with three cops who badgered her and refused her requests for a lawyer.  They threatened all sorts of things until they finally got her to sign a statement that she did it.  The funny thing was, she wasn't even there on the night in question.  Thats the thing that saved her dumb ass.  When she proved that, one of the cops admitted to what his cohorts had done and her "confession" was thrown out.  The city had to settle out of court for the actions of the cops. 


Don't call her ass dumb until you've walked a mile in her shoes.  Look at the circumstances she confessed under: three against one, request for a lawyer refused, threatening and badgering.  All absolutely ILLEGAL. Hence the out of court settlement.  People don't understand how someone can admit to something they didn't do, but believe me, it happens more often than most people like to think about. 

_____________________________

When you really trust someone, you have to be okay with not understanding some things.
~Real Live Preacher, Real Live Preacher weblog, 07-08-04; Anonymous author of RealLivePreacher.com

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/3/2008 5:55:54 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		If you do decide to talk, there are no do-overs. You have to assume that you are being recorded on tape as well as video, it would be uncommon if you were not, even for the most basic traffic citation.

Every cop is wired these days. 

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RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/3/2008 6:38:06 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

If you do decide to talk, there are no do-overs. You have to assume that you are being recorded on tape as well as video, it would be uncommon if you were not, even for the most basic traffic citation.

Every cop is wired these days. 


This is similar in nature to what my concealed handgun license instructor told our class. He said even if it's your place, and they're clearly a burgalar and you think you're clearly in the right, when the cops arrive, you say "I was in fear for my life, my lawyer is on the way." And then you hush. Because even in a situation like that some friendly-sounding sergeant, who appears to be on your side, will get you to talking, and soon enough, you could find yourself in handcuffs.

The instructor made us repeat that phrase and said "if you don't feel you can repeat that phrase and only that phrase to the cops just like I said, stand up and leave now."

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/3/2008 7:53:01 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantheart

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

My sister-in-law was arrested and accused of stealing money from her job.  She was put into a room with three cops who badgered her and refused her requests for a lawyer.  They threatened all sorts of things until they finally got her to sign a statement that she did it.  The funny thing was, she wasn't even there on the night in question.  Thats the thing that saved her dumb ass.  When she proved that, one of the cops admitted to what his cohorts had done and her "confession" was thrown out.  The city had to settle out of court for the actions of the cops. 


Don't call her ass dumb until you've walked a mile in her shoes.  Look at the circumstances she confessed under: three against one, request for a lawyer refused, threatening and badgering.  All absolutely ILLEGAL. Hence the out of court settlement.  People don't understand how someone can admit to something they didn't do, but believe me, it happens more often than most people like to think about. 

I call her a dumb ass not from this one incident but from the 20 years I've known her.  Trust me on the fact that I've earned the right to call her a dumb ass and she has earned the title.  I was actually behind her on this one, though.  And I understand exactly how people confess to things they haven't done.  Its why torture is ineffective for gathering information.

(in reply to servantheart)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/3/2008 8:25:29 PM   
servantheart


Posts: 960
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Good.

_____________________________

When you really trust someone, you have to be okay with not understanding some things.
~Real Live Preacher, Real Live Preacher weblog, 07-08-04; Anonymous author of RealLivePreacher.com

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/4/2008 3:59:52 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Just a friendly lil caution:  criminal law is a specialty.  Yr lawyer from when You got divorced, had Yr will drawn, or sold Yr house in all likelihood will do You more harm than good. 

You do not know what you are talking about.  Please listen.

A public defender is assigned by a judge, well after your arrest.  At the moment of arrest, you need some counsel.  A "retainer" is a significant chunk of money -- say $5,000 -- that you pay a lawyer in advance to do all kinds of crap for you. 

Any lawyer, including your divorce attorney, can agree to be the intermediary between you and the police, between the moment of your arrest, and your bail hearing.  This does not require a retainer.  *If* you ever get arrested, and that happens, the lawyer could then send you a bill for the few minutes it would take to be on the phone with the police.  This would not be a big bill (relatively speaking), simply because there's not much to be done between arrest and bail hearing.  The expensive stuff takes place between the bail hearing and conclusion of the trial.

Thank you, Luci, for telling that story.


First of all, dream on as to getting a  lil bitty bill from any lawyer...especially for a court appearance.  Second, You missed my point...what i was (trying) to say was that if Yr arrested, You need a CRIMINAL lawyer -- not Yr divorce attorney who doesn't even know where the jail is.
 
pinksugarsub


Actually this is COMPLETELY INACCURATE. All lawyers who graduate from an ABA accredited law school (essentially meaning lawyers everywhere except California, which will allow any jerkoff who passes the bar exam - including those with no college degree who studied themselves to practice) take a common curriculum in the first year. In the first year this includes both criminal law and criminal procedure as well as evidence and constitutional law.
 
Thus your divorce lawyer, corporate lawyer etc is more than capable of getting you bonded out and of preserving your rights while in custody. A prudent lawyer, who values his reputation and malpractice insurance will not take on cases he or she is not qualified for and will ultimately refer you to a specialist if the matter warrants it. However, all lawyers have the training and expertise needed to say "Don't answer that" or to arrange for a speedy arraignment and to motion for a release on bond or better yet ROR.

When my (now) exgirlfriend got tagged for doing 82 mph in a school zone, the lawyer who got her out for me was in fact the corporate lawyer who handles my business matters. (I am not a criminal so I do not have a criminal lawyer.) He did pretty damn good too in that he got it pled down to "failure to obey a traffic control device" to which she pled nolo contendre and he got all the misdemeanors - reckless endangerment, disorderly conduct, verbal assualt on a peace officer, resisting arrest with violence, etc dismissed outright. A flying buddy of mine, who is an oil and gas lawyer, is also the patron saint of various strippers at a certain club known in houston as "The Pirate Ship". He practically lives there (for the buffet lunch of course) and any time the dancers get raided he is right there as their guardian angel, and he is quite effective at shutting them up and unless they have already done some extras for an undercover vice cop, they generally dont miss their next set...

Would you want a corporate lawyer or an oil and gas lawyer defending you in a capital murder case? Of course not... BUT, the shit that most people get arrested for is so inconsequential that you dont really even need a lawyer much less a criminal lawyer. Remember, most people arrested are arrested for "bullshit" like vehicle and traffic shit, a bad check, public intoxication, or some absurdly minor thing... I have two things on my criminal record - #1) Failure to impound a stallion (an ag and markets violation when an ungelded male horse (that ironically belonged to my exwife but I paid the boarding bills) got out and threw a hump into someones mare.) and #2) A Fish and Game violation because they changed the boundry of the wildlife management unit since the previous year and I filled a doe tag in the wrong zone. Whooopie shit. I didnt need OJ's dream team to get out of those...

Best thing to do. Keep your mouth shut. Be respectful so the cop doesnt beat the piss out of you and hang additional charges on you... (My exgirlfriend could probably have talked her way out of the school zone thing by being polite and respectful instead of launching into the "Youve got to be fucking kidding me! Town what town! Where was the speedzone sign! This is bullshit! Fuck you! No Im not getting out of the car you fucking asshole etc" However, she got her ass kicked and got slapped with a laundry list of charges...) If arrested dont resist. Dont answer questions invoke your right to counsel and make your call. Dont engage the cops in small talk - not even about baseball. Because then - if it goes to court the cop testifies "Oh yes he was very pleasant! Very friendly, downright chatty... Then he lawyered up and refused to answer questions about the bloody axe in his trunk" Don't talk to cellmates either cause they can cut deals... Ie - yeah I got a hummer from this dancer in the pirate ship... Well next thing you know hes testifying that you were bragging to him that... (There ARE ways around the heresay rule - one of them being a person testifying about what you told them!)

To be blunt, some people can handle a custodial interrogation situation better than others. Neither of the times I got hung up, the ag and markets thing or the deer hunting thing, did I bother to call a lawyer. Because I know my rights, I wasnt scared, and they couldnt coerce me to say or sign anything.... However, Im not a wet pants scared little 19 year old girl who just got the living snot beat out of her- so I got my lawyer down to Britt mucho pronto before she signed a statement admitting she was on the grassy knoll in Dallas LOL! However, ANY lawyer will do to arrange bail and to advise you during an interrogation. In fact ANY lawyer is worth a hell of a lot more in that situation that a bondsman. Bondsmen are ripoffs unless youre dirt poor and cant come up with the cash bond. Id rather put up $5000 and get it all back than put up $500 and kiss it goodbye and a lawyer can often get you released without bond....

(in reply to pinksugarsub)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/4/2008 2:00:08 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		I'd add to that, don't tell lawyers anything you don't have to unless you're awfully tight with him or her. They're officers of the court, often times no better than the arresting officer. Think about it, they're all lawyers - often golfing buddies with their lawyer friends, the judges and the prosecutors... who are you. You're Joe Shmuck, aka the dog shit on the bottom of their shoes.

You want your public defender to get your charges dismissed, you  need  to convince him to tell his buddy the judge that he really thinks you're innocent.

Lie to him, pay him well, do what it takes. 

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(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/4/2008 3:14:58 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I'd add to that, don't tell lawyers anything you don't have to unless you're awfully tight with him or her. They're officers of the court, often times no better than the arresting officer. Think about it, they're all lawyers - often golfing buddies with their lawyer friends, the judges and the prosecutors... who are you. You're Joe Shmuck, aka the dog shit on the bottom of their shoes.

You want your public defender to get your charges dismissed, you  need  to convince him to tell his buddy the judge that he really thinks you're innocent.

Lie to him, pay him well, do what it takes. 


Ok, that is absolutely HORRIBLE advice. You never withold anything from your lawyer, nor do you lie to him or her... Thats the kind of shit that in a trial, whether criminal or civil, will get you blindsided and you will then have the jury sitting there imprinting what they just heard before your lawyer frantically asked for a recess to confer with their client!!!  As my lawyer told me once in a civil mattter - "I dont care what you said or did, I cant fix what I dont know about." Plus, you can pick up a perjury charge along the way!

During a child custody proceeding in which I was called to testify by my ex-wifes former husband, her lawyer went to great pains to emphasize how good she was with kids. Asking lines of questioning like "do you ever scream at the children" No, of course not I am a professional educator... Do you ever cuss at them? No, Im a good catholic and I detest foul language, and so forth,,,, Wasnt her lawyer surprised to hear a voice mail I had saved in which she told me to "I dont care where you are or what you are fucking doing! Get your motherfucking ass home before I kill one of these fucking brats. _________ is a fucking asshole like his fucking father and I should have aborted the little bastard. and then she launched into "__________ shut the fuck up , Im on the fucking phone and if you say one more word Im going to beat your little fucking head in ...etc...." Admittedly, children can be a handful but she was way over the top... Now, if her lawyer had known what she REALLY does, he would have avoided the line of questioning instead of creating Saint Laura the Kindergarten Teacher, a Good Catholic who never raises her voice or cusses...

What you say to your lawyer is covered by attorney client privelage and they will tell you what they dont want to know as "officers of the court" obligated by rules of discovery etc... However, if you lie to a lawyer, you are not getting the right representation because he or she is operating with an incomplete set of facts. A lawyer is a "doctor of law" hence the Juris Doctorte degree and if you lie to one or withold info its akin to lying to your doctor. He cant treat you properly if he doesnt know your true condition.

As for public defenders - if you resort to one of those you will probably do time on jaywalking... With lawyers, you get what you pay for and that golfing buddy thing can work to your advantage. Like I said my ex girlfriend got a hell of a plea deal - Im sure that came from the "good ol boys network"...

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/4/2008 3:18:13 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I'd add to that, don't tell lawyers anything you don't have to unless you're awfully tight with him or her. They're officers of the court, often times no better than the arresting officer. Think about it, they're all lawyers - often golfing buddies with their lawyer friends, the judges and the prosecutors... who are you. You're Joe Shmuck, aka the dog shit on the bottom of their shoes.

You want your public defender to get your charges dismissed, you  need  to convince him to tell his buddy the judge that he really thinks you're innocent.

Lie to him, pay him well, do what it takes. 

Three people you don't have secrets from:

1. Your accountant
2. Your computer guy
3. Your lawyer

Lie to everyone else if you like, but lie to these three will get you screwed in the end.


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Would Y/you Know What to Do? - 6/4/2008 4:14:47 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		No, I couldn't disagree more. If your lawyer isn't the judge's buddy, you're really screwed. You've got to play your lawyer just like you'd play the arresting officer or the judge. They're all on the same team, they're all officers sworn to uphold the law. There are levels of trust between you and your lawyer, sure, just like I said before - you have to be awfully tight with him before you can really trust him.

I've seen the judge call both the attorneys into his chambers before and magically reach decisions in there, and that's no coincidence. It's a game to them, and you're the puck, bottom line. You pay and you lose, unless you know how the game is played yourself.

You don't want to get caught lying to your lawyer for obvious reasons, but a lot of the time you're screwing yourself if you're so stupid that you spill your guts to him, or to her, whatever the case may be.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/4/2008 4:15:37 PM >

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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