RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies?

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kdsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 10:03:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Irishknight again I point you to the well established fact that the production levels are largely set by OPEC which is predominently made up of countries with nationalized oil companies. The private Oil Companies generally buy their refinery feed stock from nationalized oil companies. want to know where the price fixing takes place start the search at OPEC. Problem is OPEC is not subject to US Anti Trust Law. Hi Archer... your statement above is exactly why we need to flex our economic muscle as in my previous post. Butch

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 10:07:30 AM)
Speculators make educated guesses at what will happen in the next 3-6 months to the supply and demand in the commodity markets. How you make rules on educated guessing eludes me. If they guess right more often than they guess wrong then they are doing well if they guess wrong more often than they guess right then they go out of business.

Irishknight -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 10:11:43 AM)
I read something recently where other countries are doing away with specualtors altogether. That sound like a good idea to me. Oil sells for whatever it sells for instead of what someone thinks it will sell for. Its kind of a novel concept.

kdsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 10:14:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Speculators make educated guesses at what will happen in the next 3-6 months to the supply and demand in the commodity markets. How you make rules on educated guessing eludes me. If they guess right more often than they guess wrong then they are doing well if they guess wrong more often than they guess right then they go out of business. There are already laws and regulations in the American market...one more may help... and yes just a simple report could be required before speculation... but I am also talking about my post previous to that...Our political clout as the main user of opecs product...It is the only way that will work. Butch

popeye1250 -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 10:14:20 AM)
This reccession that we're in will only be worse with higher gas prices. The higher the price goes for gasoline the fewer people who can afford it. "What goes up..."

ToysAndTies -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 10:23:53 AM)
America is finally feeling the effects of its Bigger is Better vehicle mentality. Ask Ford, those SUVs and Hummers everyone was creaming themselves over a few years ago are all over Ebay as people put 2 and 2 together with their gas bills. I'm not against a rise in gas prices; this seems to be more of a correction than a gouge, however, let's not start crying for the poor oil barons just yet. The prices for gas in this country were squashed artificially low for so many years, people became accustomed to the abundant cheap fuel source. Ask France and Italy how much they pay for gas, then come back and cry about $4 a gallon. Any kind of federal gas subsidies to campaign contributing industries should be halted: if you want to chide our "socialist brothers" then let's take an all-out-capitalism approach. If your company / firm / etc cannot swim on its own, then let it sink. The increases in gas costs should not merely be going into your worshipped profit margin, under the guise of supporting that good ol-fashioned American entreprenurial spirit. It should be from a higher federal gas tax, like any other vice substance like alcohol and nicotene, and be reinvested in an infrastructure promoting alternative energies and moving AWAY from gas, not merely towards domestic sources. Let's remember, Archer, those big oil and automotive companies you are defending had the opportunity to drastically alter the energy demands of this country decades ago with the electric car push... (anyone curious, watch "Who Killed the Electric Car" with a box of tissues) and did no such thing, despite the economic incentives of first comer effect. Our addiction to cars is finally taking a toll on our wallets, which seems to be the only thing that gets anyone's attention in this country anymore, as hearts and minds have gone out the window. We could have another thread solely on wasteful spending across the boards. Want to really make a difference with gas prices? Carpool, vanpool, use public transportation, buy more fuel efficient cars (and if anyone reading knows how to make a fry car from an old mercedes, please message me) don't waste home heating oil or leave electricity on when it's unnecessary, and most importantly, don't buy in to the idea that this is just "good business" and you have no choice but to swallow up everything an "expert" says.

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 10:36:12 AM)
Now I can find alot of common ground with this post. I'm all for eliminating the subsidies that oil companies get for the oil part of their business. Edited to add if you argue that The Oil Companies are making too much profit to justify any subsidies. I have no rebuttal at all other than any subsidies they are collecting on the part of teir businesses that are working on renewable energy. (and more and more of them are realizing that they need to be energy companies instead of oil companies and that I could maybe agree to subsidizing) I put defense in quotes for a reason, I'm in no way saying they have been all white hats goodness and light. Hell they have done some pretty bad stuff over the decades. I'm mearly asking that folks take an honest look and approach to deciding what's excess, what's coruption and what's just the natural consequences of our own market choices. A major bone of contention on my mind that runs that way is the Republican lead subsidy of those massive luxury SUV's for businesses. Had the govenrment had any brains they would have been subsidizing the sales of hybrid vehicles for businesses.

popeye1250 -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 11:02:39 AM)
Toys, gas prices are so high in Europe as compared to the U.S. because most of it is tax to pay for those 8 week "holidays" and "cradle to grave" benefits that they enjoy over there. They'll send you away to a luxurious spa for 4 weeks for "skin care". At least they're getting something for their money.

ToysAndTies -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 11:06:03 AM)
That's also in large part due to the much higher percentage of income that goes to paying federal taxes. But why would Americans ever need things like national health care, six years of college for about 20,000 Euros, affordable train lines, and more organic food sources? We have cars!....

kdsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 11:15:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ToysAndTies That's also in large part due to the much higher percentage of income that goes to paying federal taxes. But why would Americans ever need things like national health care, six years of college for about 20,000 Euros, affordable train lines, and more organic food sources? We have cars!.... Just maybe if we were not now, or in the past, off defending the world from itself...we could now afford those luxuries that many European countries now enjoy at out expense. Just thought I'd jump off in the deep end again...lol Butch

popeye1250 -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 11:41:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ToysAndTies That's also in large part due to the much higher percentage of income that goes to paying federal taxes. But why would Americans ever need things like national health care, six years of college for about 20,000 Euros, affordable train lines, and more organic food sources? We have cars!.... Yes, the "culture of the automobile" made this country what it is today albeit on cheap energy supplies. And the big oil companies are going to grab every last cent out of us that they can in the months leading up to Jan 2009 under Bush! Funny that they didn't try this during his first term in office! This economy won't and can't function under $4 per gallon gasoline prices. You can only "pass the costs along to the consumer" for so long. Look at all the independant truckers going out of business. We're going to start seeing "shortages" of products soon. And it's not just individuals who will suffer it's businesses as well. Some restaurants' business is down 25-30% now. Like it or not our govt is going to have to step in and do something or we'll be in a Depression not a reccession!

Mercnbeth -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 12:02:42 PM)
~ Fast Reply ~ Having lived through the first 'gas crises' when gas stations had to paint a 1 on their signs and new pumps had to installed because the old ones didn't exceed 3 figures; what got the attention of OPEC was action. In this instance, President Carter did something. He lowered the speed limit. He instituted a domestic policy of developing alternative fuels, he wore a sweater. Of course fearing the US may work toward reducing or eliminating the dependence on OPEC oil; OPEC increased production and reduced prices. Unfortunately leadership and focus wained with the price and the US lost interest as a people. All the projects, and the government backing of alternative fuel programs was abandoned. President Carter had the right idea - his leadership left a lot to be desired. Before thinking that comment has with it a political agenda; in contrast President Bush has stopped playing golf. I don't know if that's relative to the current gas price crisis, but its the only think I know he's done about anything since 2006. It will take similar dramatic action to get OPEC's attention today. A comprehensive government program including the use of nuclear power, drilling known oil reserves, and in the meantime opening up the national oil reserve will have similar impact. The downward pressure will be a two front assault. The dollar will increase in value, lowering the price; and OPEC will try again to sidetrack the effort by increasing production. Hopefully whoever is elected in November will consider some kind of action with a goal of US energy self sufficiency; and not lack the will to see it followed through to success.

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 12:16:22 PM)
The only problem with unilateral US action against OPEC to decrease demand is that the increasing demands by China India and other growing economies will likely keep the result from being felt nearly as much as it was the last time around. If they can find other buyers then they will likely not make the changes we want. We're going to have to make some real changes. buying hybrids, reducing consumption, trading off petroleum fuels for other sorces of energy is not optional anymore. The simple facts of the market pretty much demand it.

kdsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 12:29:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer The only problem with unilateral US action against OPEC to decrease demand is that the increasing demands by China India and other growing economies will likely keep the result from being felt nearly as much as it was the last time around. If they can find other buyers then they will likely not make the changes we want. We're going to have to make some real changes. buying hybrids, reducing consumption, trading off petroleum fuels for other sorces of energy is not optional anymore. The simple facts of the market pretty much demand it. You are right....our clout is decreasing every day...If we are going to use it we should use it now not next year. Most people seem to think religion is the cause of all evil in this world...I personally think the battle over energy resources is more a cause of strife. I just can't understand our government’s lack of leadership in developing alternate energy resources. The quickest way to guarantee domestic tranquility, as mandated in our Constitution, is to keep a strong vibrant economy. And cheap energy is the only way we can compete world wide with cheap labor. Yet our elected representatives refuse to lead the way....Pitiful Butch

Irishknight -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 12:31:25 PM)
I still have to wonder if they are charging China as much as they charge us. Would it be as profitable for them to ignore us if we took a stand as it would be to do something about it?

kdsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 12:39:52 PM)
I read somewhere...hope I'm right... That China is subsidizing oil prices... they are below $2 a gallon... They can afford it i guess the US cannot. Butch

Mercnbeth -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 12:40:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer The only problem with unilateral US action against OPEC to decrease demand is that the increasing demands by China India and other growing economies will likely keep the result from being felt nearly as much as it was the last time around. If they can find other buyers then they will likely not make the changes we want. We're going to have to make some real changes. buying hybrids, reducing consumption, trading off petroleum fuels for other sorces of energy is not optional anymore. The simple facts of the market pretty much demand it. Archer, Agreed, but what's the "worst case" result - 10 years from now we off the OPEC tit forever? Who cares at that point if OPEC's point of sale is Beijing? It would be an interesting result. I don't know if the Chinese yen would be as attractive as a strong self sufficient US dollar. I also wonder if the Chinese would be so benign in protecting their best interests in the middle east as has the US. Under similar circumstances I think a Chinese flag would be flying over Kuwait and Baghdad today while the people of Iraq lived in conditions similar to those in Tibet.

Joyful007 -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 12:45:53 PM)
If the government is involved it will not be efficient. If you sue oil companies then you will most likely curtail supply even further causing not only a shortage but higher prices.

pinksugarsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 1:02:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Prove the assertion of price fixing beyond a reasonable doubt. I gave plenty to counter the idea that it was fixed by the gasoline refining companies. Their feed stock comes in at an average price set by the commodity exchanges in an open bidding process. You have made a claim supported by very flimsey evidence. the fact that gasoline stations in cleveland (supplied by pipeline to maybe 3 storage facilities) and then trucked to the various mostly independantly owned franchise gas stations, is going to result in pretty narrow at the pump prices. So where is the fix??? When all the stations change prices on the same day, at about the same time, to about the same amount, that's pretty strong evidence of the type of collusion that violates the Anti-Trust Act. It's an extremely strict law; onna my law professors told us two people in the same industry could never even have a friendly lunch without it being criminal. Yes, i realise that OPEC and the other suppliers are affecting the price increases..i don't claim to be schooled in macro-economics. That doesn't change the fact that the retailers are price fixing and IMO should be arrested for it. pinksugarsub

pinksugarsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/3/2008 1:06:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joyful007 If the government is involved it will not be efficient. If you sue oil companies then you will most likely curtail supply even further causing not only a shortage but higher prices. That is tantamount to saying we should tolerate criminal behavior because we are afraid we will be extorted or blackmailed. Not a good enough reason IMO. March a few oil company CEO's into federal prision and somehow i think prices will drop; they sure as hell will at least vary. pinksugarsub

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