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Racism - 6/3/2008 9:09:19 AM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		CNN will be running a series in July called "Black in America" that i'm looking forward to watching.  What i hope will happen with this thread is a calm and reasoned discusssion of the racsim in this country, particularly where African-Americans are concerned.
 
i don't consider myself a bigot, though i'm certainly not perfect.  However, i am somewhat aware of the many advantages i've enjoyed all my life simply by virue of being caucsian.  (i'm scottish-american, so i'm really, really white, lol.)
 
Logic 'proves' that if i have enjoyed the advantages attendant with being white in America, minorities, and especially African-Americans, are suffering a burden associated with being black or latino or whatever.  i've lived in all sorts of neighborhoods, from poor ones to wealthy ones, and i've observed people of all colors in every stratum of class in this country....and i see that African-Americans never stop suffering risks and burdens due to their color no matter the surroundings or circumstances they may achieve.
 
Do i owe A/anyone an apology?  Restitution?  Affirmative action?  IMHO, the answer to all these questions is 'yes', but i recognise that reasonable P/pl can differ on these questions.
 
Just for a 'for instance', look at the eviseral reaction to Rush Limbaugh vs the Rev Farakhan or the Rev Sharpton.  Limbaugh is treated reespectfully and seen as a buffoon at the very worst by his critics.  Farakhan and Sharpton, however, are seen as sinister and dangerous....P/pl to fear and who actively wish harm to others.  Frankly i don't see Limbaugh's rhetoric any more vitriolic than Farakhan's or Sharpton's; in fact i've found myself agreeing with Sharpton s'times lately.
 
Okay, i hope this turns out to be a good discussion thread.
 
pinksugarsub

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 9:34:18 AM   
persephonee


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Status: offline 		When i was in my 20s and living in Minneapolis, myself and a male friend of mine who is black would conduct little impromptu experiments. i would go to the grocery store in sweats and a painted on teeshirt...scruffy looking and buy things with a check and not get carded. He would try the same thing in the same clothing style and get carded...then we would change it out and do the same thing dressed up in business attire. More often then not he was carded for id way more often than i and we would discuss this at great length.
Growing up, my parents purposefully transferred me out of my public school district so i could attend more racially diverse schools within the city. My official guardians, should something happen to my parents were a black couple...but come senior year of high school when my prom date happened to be black....oh manalive...it all hit the fan.
Internalized prejudices are ingrained but not involuntary...a person can not necessarily control an automatic response to some outside stimuli...but they can control how they choose to interpret that response and how it is communicated...in other words...ya can think what ya want...but everyone is responsible for their actions in response to those thoughts.
BTW i never did get a decent response from my parents when i confronted them on it...the most i got was a shrug and an "I dont really know why that happened".
i dont see how i could ever do anything about the world and how things are...other than to make sure my corner of it is kept the way i see it should be. my friends are my friends and i have diversity in my life everywhere.
Unrelated to race, but in reference to tolerance of diversity; i recently witnessed my son playing at the park with a little girl his age, who had no arms at all. The father and i visited as they played and on our way home all my son could talk about was playing with this girl....the subject of her arms never even came up. i watched him help her on a piece of equipment and yet...it didnt merit one comment from him afterward. im so proud of him i could literally burst sometimes. If i can manage not to fuck him up too badly on his way up...hell turn out great.

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 9:34:59 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		I'm white.  American by birth, Texan by choice, Highlander by the grace of God!

And I don't owe any black person any apology, reparation, remuneration, or the time of day for any damn thing.  I have never owned a black slave, nor do I wish to own a black slave.

I am guilty of a great many things, but bigotry is not one of them.  Nor will I ever accept the specious, irrational, and basically asinine proposition that I bear a measure of responsibility for  what others with white skin did over a century ago.  The idea that I should bear such burden is morally bankrupt, racially divisive, and completely, utterly, irredeemably wrong.


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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 9:43:48 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I could talk about who is a buffoon and who is not… But I won’t… I could give views on restitution and affirmative action but they are too complicated to all be included in one thread. Instead I will attempt to condense to the very bottom line.

Most people learn their racial views from their parents and their peers at a very early age. This learned behavior is overcome slowly at first then with more speed through enlightened generations, laws, and experience.

My mother was of the generation grown during segregation…I had to overcome this learned behavior and was aided when my school was integrated. Over the years I became much less racist and made a point of teaching my children that skin color should mean nothing.

Now my daughters are even less racist then me and will teach my grandchildren the same.

I truly believe that in a few more generations most racism will disappear…at least in America.

I do understand this is not fast enough for some…but we ARE heading in the right direction and with momentum.
Butch

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 9:44:38 AM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		Leaving aside the historical wrongs and injustices suffered by minorities, especially African-Americans, what about the current burdens, insults, threats, and risks T/they run by virtue of being  "Black in America"?
 
pinksugarsub

< Message edited by pinksugarsub -- 6/3/2008 9:54:57 AM >

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:03:56 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		What about the current burdens, threats, insults and risks we all take?

I believe that racism is self perpetuating at this point.  We take two steps forward and someone starts screaming racism and drives us right back to where we began.    I have seen resentment spring up where there previously was none after a minority screamed racism in the workplace because they were passed over for promotion.  Nevermind the fact that this person had the least seniority and was less qualified. 
I was called in to testify during an investigation of alleged discrimination.  Both the accuser and the accused were friends of mine who didn't like each other.  I remember telling them that they didn't want to ask me because they wouldn't like my answers.  I also remember the investigator nearly peeing himself when I pointed out that calling someone a stupid mother
f#$%er is not racial.  It just points out extreme dislike.

< Message edited by Irishknight -- 6/3/2008 10:04:56 AM >

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:21:51 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

what about the current burdens, insults, threats, and risks T/they run by virtue of being "Black in America"?

As Irishknight has already asked....what about the burdens we all bear?

At what point do people stop boo-hooing over an imperfect world and go about the practical business of living?


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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:23:39 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

Internalized prejudices are ingrained but not involuntary...a person can not necessarily control an automatic response to some outside stimuli...but they can control how they choose to interpret that response and how it is communicated...in other words...ya can think what ya want...but everyone is responsible for their actions in response to those thoughts.



I'm not sure if prejudice is ingrained; I think it's learnt from an early age. If you put little kids of different colours in a room, they don't give a shit who's what colour. Racism raises its ugly head later, for a plethora of reasons, and education is mostly to blame. The parents...

Otherwise I loved what you wrote above. As intelligent human beings it's within our power to fight our ignorance and to be open-minded and fair. What I find with racism, or any other prejudice, is that it is a wilful and complacent reaction to difference. People enjoy being riled up, and the feeling of strength that comes from belonging to a group is a powerful one. Us, and them.

I am always shocked by the racial divide in America and by the tenacity of racial prejudice in this country. It's extremely pervasive, though: note the amount of white people who feel that they are somehow discriminated against because of their skin colour when all evidence shows their advantage over others is unquestionable. This is still a shockingly segregated society.

quote:



Unrelated to race, but in reference to tolerance of diversity; i recently witnessed my son playing at the park with a little girl his age, who had no arms at all. The father and i visited as they played and on our way home all my son could talk about was playing with this girl....the subject of her arms never even came up. i watched him help her on a piece of equipment and yet...it didnt merit one comment from him afterward. im so proud of him i could literally burst sometimes. If i can manage not to fuck him up too badly on his way up...hell turn out great.



You're doing exactly the right thing: to show your son not to attach undue importance to outside characteristics is the way to do it.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/3/2008 10:54:23 AM >

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:29:46 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

This is still a shockingly segregated society.

No, it isn't.  Why people delight in perpetuating this absurd myth is beyond me.


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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:35:45 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Perhaps you ought to check your vision? It's in the advertising, it's in the culture, it's in the politics. If you choose to not see it, all the less power to you *shrug*.

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:38:14 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hi kittinSol

Are you saying prejudice is strictly a learned behavior? If so I believe you may be wrong. My view …It is a built-in survival behavior that must be overcome.

It is funny you should use the kids and color example. I wish I could find the link but I once read a study where grade school children were divided and each group provided shoes of either red or blue color. That was all that was done and at the end of a 3-month test period they found that those of the same shoe color tended to make friends and exclude those of different shoe color from their group.

Certainly not conclusive but it does give some insight into human nature. If it is possible something as small as shoe color can make a difference imagine what skin color or language will make…Even if there is no other influence.

Butch

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:43:43 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I don't think there is such a thing as human nature (controversial!).

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:49:45 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I don't think there is such a thing as human nature (controversial!).


Now see kittinSol you just proved there is... you, as most will argue any point no matter how wrong you are....

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:52:50 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You're mistaken if you think I made that comment purely for the sake of argument: I truly believe that we are made, and that very little about us is innate. Human nature is a convenient fallacy that is used to explain and justify our more ugly behaviours.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/3/2008 10:53:03 AM >

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:54:20 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
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Status: offline 		This is good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXrLnshM_ME

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:56:35 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		But our ugly behaviors are soooo common regardless of race or culture... Why then are they the same unless it is a nature...In the same way as some dogs are more aggressive then others.

Butch

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:58:59 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Perhaps you ought to check your vision? It's in the advertising, it's in the culture, it's in the politics. If you choose to not see it, all the less power to you *shrug*.

*chuckle*




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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 10:59:10 AM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		So says the southern white male.... Tell you what, we'll stop perpetuating it when it ceases to exist. How many educated ( supposedly ) people are going to tell me one more time that Obama is a muslim? Or got sworn in on the Koran? Please. It is fear combined with racism that keeps America so stagnantly behind the times it is embarrassing. Evolve already.    



quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

This is still a shockingly segregated society.

No, it isn't.  Why people delight in perpetuating this absurd myth is beyond me.



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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 11:03:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Most people learn their racial views from their parents and their peers at a very early age. This learned behavior is overcome slowly at first then with more speed through enlightened generations, laws, and experience.


Quite the contrary, I learned about racism in college. It was conducted by the government and the college institution and there was little we could do about it.

My black roommate and I met during orientation. We had a lot in common, not the least of which was we wanted to form a band to pick up some beer money. When the school year started all was well. It took about 2 weeks of social pressure to learn that he should sit in the 'black section' of the dinning hall (It was at the instigation of the black students that there was a black section.) Once fraternity rush season started we learned we couldn't pledge the same group so we didn't pledge either. We both surrendered next semester but never stopped being friends.

We were both enrolled in the 'pre-med' program, and belonged to the same study group. Institutionally, we learned that, should he and I have the exact same grades and scored exactly the same in the MCAT - he would be accepted and I would not. We became aware of the 'more equal' status of racism legislated by the government through 'Affirmative Action' programs.

My friend was told he was a 'victim'. That he couldn't compete with his white roommate on equal terms, because 100 years ago one of his ancestors was, most likely, a slave.

He did make it to Med school. The bastard never needed any help out performing me in class. AA had nothing to do with his success or my failure. NYC was a $1 PATH ride away and I switched my major to 'Partying' with a minor in 'Drug & Alcohol' abuse. Last time we met for dinner in NY where he practices as a heart surgeon, we laughed like hell about those times. What doesn't make him laugh is whenever he gets a vibe that someone thinks he's achieved what he has because he was an 'AA hire'.

You're right - racism is a learned behavior; taught openly in our schools, perpetuated and legislated by our government.

The bigotry of low expectations is the worst manner of racism that can be inflicted on a person.

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RE: Racism - 6/3/2008 11:09:57 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Mercnbeth...remeber the people perpetuating those behaviors were of a previous generation... How about you..will you perpetuate them?

I think not or at least I hope not...so there is change.

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