RE: Immigration law: something's got to give.

RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (Full Version)

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MstrObjectmaker -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 9:41:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight I have a silly question. How many more deserving immigrants could we take in if we weren't already overburdened with illegals? If we spent more money enforcing our borders, maybe we could find a place for young men like this one. The only way to stop illegal immigration such as from places like South America, Mexico and Cuba and anywhere else for that matter, is to take the democratic ideals and economical advantages that the US has promoted for so long as the American Dream utopia through its commercial media outlets such as the TV, film and magazine industries to those countries where the people are subjected to this American barage that is the percieved utopian American dream. Even with tougher border controls such as fences, walls and other isolationist systems, you will never ever be able to stem the tide of those who have nothing and wish to have just some of the rights and priveledges that you as Americans seem to have. You can blame all your illegal immigration woes on your own belief in the American dream and its subsequent media promotion.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 9:44:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Yeah, well I hear that if it wasn't for illegal immigrants there would be nobody here to pick up the shit or the tomatoes or look after the kiddies... so I don't really know how to answer your question. I think the 'illegal immigration' scare is much the product of jingoism and demagogy. Not denying there might be a problem... but I'm not convinced how the pros weigh in against the cons. Damn right - keep those illegals coming. I've been convinced that I've been on the wrong side of this issue. I bet my pool cleaning, gardening, and maid service would cost 5 times as much as they do now if I had to hire US citizens. I got my deck put in paying $5/hour; it may have taken less time if I didn't have the language barrier, but I may have had to pay $20/hour for that. I've learned and next time I drive through the Home Depot - Worker Depot department I'll get there early before all the English speaking workers have been sold out. I don't have need of a nanny, but by giving the maids an extra $1.00 a day - they take care of the pets when I'm gone. Besides, I can't imagine having to pick up my dogs' crap; they've been doing it for me for a $.25/pile. It keeps our young people where they belong - in front of the computer or their Wii game player; not sweating in the heat doing lawn work or stuck in a home babysitting where a Michael Myers type could come and kill them. Then there is the issue of the cost of food. Imagine what a chicken would cost if Tyson had to hire and pay US citizens. Tomatoes, lettuce, the strawberries for my Sunday morning champaign would all cost more. So I say - [sm=welcomewave.gif] Illegals! You know - that may be the problem. It's really just a matter of semantics. 'Undocumented Workers' sounds a LOT better than Illegal Aliens. We could do this to many aspects of our County and eliminate more problems. For instance: Instead of 'Drug Dealers' - 'Non-certified pharmacists'. Instead of 'Auto Thief' - 'Undocumented Car Renters' Instead of 'Murder' - 'Non-government executioner' And for your white collar types: Instead of 'Embezzler' - 'Creative Accountant' Crime problem and prison overcrowding solved! QED!

rulemylife -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 9:45:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Yeah, well I hear that if it wasn't for illegal immigrants there would be nobody here to pick up the shit or the tomatoes or look after the kiddies... so I don't really know how to answer your question. I think the 'illegal immigration' scare is much the product of jingoism and demagogy. Not denying there might be a problem... but I'm not convinced how the pros weigh in against the cons. Yes, because unscrupulous employers hire illegals to work for pennies instead of paying Americans a fair wage to do those jobs and our government not only tolerates it but encourages it. And you thought slavery was abolished.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 9:54:16 AM)
So....illegal immigration is our "fault" because as a country we're so damned successful? That we are somehow obligated to raise up every nation on earth? Ummm.....don't these same nations want the US to be a tad LESS meddlesome?

OmegaG -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:01:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight I have a silly question. How many more deserving immigrants could we take in if we weren't already overburdened with illegals? If we spent more money enforcing our borders, maybe we could find a place for young men like this one. The only way to stop illegal immigration such as from places like South America, Mexico and Cuba and anywhere else for that matter, is to take the democratic ideals and economical advantages that the US has promoted for so long as the American Dream utopia through its commercial media outlets such as the TV, film and magazine industries to those countries where the people are subjected to this American barage that is the percieved utopian American dream. Even with tougher border controls such as fences, walls and other isolationist systems, you will never ever be able to stem the tide of those who have nothing and wish to have just some of the rights and priveledges that you as Americans seem to have. You can blame all your illegal immigration woes on your own belief in the American dream and its subsequent media promotion. We've tried to take our democratic ideals and plunk them down in other countires, and we are trying to do it right now. The problem is that the people need to want that form of government enough to fight for it themselves rather then have someone else fight for them. I also think that democracy is an evolutionary process that has to be worked through by the people and country. It can't be exported, it can't be strong-armed into place. It has to be home grown by the people who will be working and fighting to maintain that system of government long after big brother has left them to their own devices. When we want them to have it more then they want it for themselves, we've seen what happens when we aren't there to hold up the pupped govenment.

rulemylife -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:01:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Yeah, well I hear that if it wasn't for illegal immigrants there would be nobody here to pick up the shit or the tomatoes or look after the kiddies... so I don't really know how to answer your question. I think the 'illegal immigration' scare is much the product of jingoism and demagogy. Not denying there might be a problem... but I'm not convinced how the pros weigh in against the cons. Damn right - keep those illegals coming. I've been convinced that I've been on the wrong side of this issue. I bet my pool cleaning, gardening, and maid service would cost 5 times as much as they do now if I had to hire US citizens. I got my deck put in paying $5/hour; it may have taken less time if I didn't have the language barrier, but I may have had to pay $20/hour for that. I've learned and next time I drive through the Home Depot - Worker Depot department I'll get there early before all the English speaking workers have been sold out. I don't have need of a nanny, but by giving the maids an extra $1.00 a day - they take care of the pets when I'm gone. Besides, I can't imagine having to pick up my dogs' crap; they've been doing it for me for a $.25/pile. It keeps our young people where they belong - in front of the computer or their Wii game player; not sweating in the heat doing lawn work or stuck in a home babysitting where a Michael Myers type could come and kill them. Then there is the issue of the cost of food. Imagine what a chicken would cost if Tyson had to hire and pay US citizens. Tomatoes, lettuce, the strawberries for my Sunday morning champaign would all cost more. So I say - [sm=welcomewave.gif] Illegals! You know - that may be the problem. It's really just a matter of semantics. 'Undocumented Workers' sounds a LOT better than Illegal Aliens. We could do this to many aspects of our County and eliminate more problems. For instance: Instead of 'Drug Dealers' - 'Non-certified pharmacists'. Instead of 'Auto Thief' - 'Undocumented Car Renters' Instead of 'Murder' - 'Non-government executioner' And for your white collar types: Instead of 'Embezzler' - 'Creative Accountant' Crime problem and prison overcrowding solved! QED! Except between insourcing illegals to save money and outsourcing tech, science, and manufacturing jobs to save money you better get used to bright blue and smiley faces because the only jobs left will be at Wal-Mart.,

popeye1250 -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:08:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Here we have a perfect example of a kid that is brilliant in school, about to get in to a good university... and the authorities deport him. Pragmatically, it's brain drain. Humanely, it's horrible. This country's richness comes from the great diversity of its inhabitants: everybody here comes from elsewhere. I am not in favour of illegal immigration: but there is a fine line between applying the law and the law being a bonehead. Specific cases demand specific reflexion: it's not cattle we're talking about, but people. Kittin, so if the kid was stupid you wouldn't have any problem sending him back? And how is being sent back to his home country being "punished?" We don't have any "shortage" of "smart" people in the U.S., just ask some of the people in this site. We have people in here who "collect" degrees. One isn't enough, then two isn't enough for them, they "need" three or more! lol What happens when 5 degrees "aren't enough?" They say they need "advanced" degrees that are "required" by their companies. Gives me a visual of some committee in a back office somewhere; "Hey! Let's "require" these people to need even more degrees!" "Yeah, that'll fix 'em, maybe they'll quit! ha, ha!" "Yeah, we'll have them going to school till they're 60! ha, ha, ha!" Just ask them how "smart" they are they'll give you a whole treatise on it! I'm one of the stupid ones, I only have one! Besides that big business and our govt keeps telling us that we need cheap labor not educated labor that they'll have to pay good money to. They even short pay H1b visa holders on their pay now. And look at all the asylees who are still here from Bosnia and Kosovo. There hasn't been any fighting in those countries for years now! When are they going back? They haven't had any claim to asylum for years now. Why did Clinton intervene in Bosnia and Kosovo anyway, so that they could live in peace over there or so that they could all immigrate to the U.S.? Refugee and Asylum programs are supposed to be temporary until the danger subsides in their countries. Those programs should not lead to U.S. Citizenship. That's why those programs are loaded with scams. Immigration to any country is not a "right." It's a priviledge.

MstrObjectmaker -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:16:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 So....illegal immigration is our "fault" because as a country we're so damned successful? That we are somehow obligated to raise up every nation on earth? Ummm.....don't these same nations want the US to be a tad LESS meddlesome? I'm not aportioning any blame here....just pointing out that its not surprising that people who live in a much less democratic and affluent society will risk just about anything to get to a society that is..... And yes you are right, alot of these nations do want the US to be less meddlesome.....but then perhaps thats just from a political point of view......A power point of view..........I mean if your part of the upper echelons and affluent strata of an undemocratic country you wouldn't necessarily want some other country to come along and tell you to do it their way or the highway.....

Irishknight -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:20:09 AM)
And this is why we should just invade Mexico.

MstrObjectmaker -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:20:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OmegaG quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight I have a silly question. How many more deserving immigrants could we take in if we weren't already overburdened with illegals? If we spent more money enforcing our borders, maybe we could find a place for young men like this one. The only way to stop illegal immigration such as from places like South America, Mexico and Cuba and anywhere else for that matter, is to take the democratic ideals and economical advantages that the US has promoted for so long as the American Dream utopia through its commercial media outlets such as the TV, film and magazine industries to those countries where the people are subjected to this American barage that is the percieved utopian American dream. Even with tougher border controls such as fences, walls and other isolationist systems, you will never ever be able to stem the tide of those who have nothing and wish to have just some of the rights and priveledges that you as Americans seem to have. You can blame all your illegal immigration woes on your own belief in the American dream and its subsequent media promotion. We've tried to take our democratic ideals and plunk them down in other countires, and we are trying to do it right now. The problem is that the people need to want that form of government enough to fight for it themselves rather then have someone else fight for them. I also think that democracy is an evolutionary process that has to be worked through by the people and country. It can't be exported, it can't be strong-armed into place. It has to be home grown by the people who will be working and fighting to maintain that system of government long after big brother has left them to their own devices. When we want them to have it more then they want it for themselves, we've seen what happens when we aren't there to hold up the pupped govenment. Ok.....I agree with what you say.......however its much easier for some people to just move to another country that has a better standard of living than it is to change the country they were born in.....

MstrObjectmaker -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:23:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight And this is why we should just invade Mexico. According to the plot of "The Day after tomorrow" your gonna want to move there anyway when mother nature bites back........so you might as well get a head start....... That way you would have a much smaller border to patrol.......

Irishknight -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:25:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight And this is why we should just invade Mexico. According to the plot of "The Day after tomorrow" your gonna want to move there anyway when mother nature bites back........so you might as well get a head start....... That way you would have a much smaller border to patrol....... Excellent!!! Now just ask your government to look the other way.

popeye1250 -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:26:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 So....illegal immigration is our "fault" because as a country we're so damned successful? That we are somehow obligated to raise up every nation on earth? Ummm.....don't these same nations want the US to be a tad LESS meddlesome? I'm not aportioning any blame here....just pointing out that its not surprising that people who live in a much less democratic and affluent society will risk just about anything to get to a society that is..... And yes you are right, alot of these nations do want the US to be less meddlesome.....but then perhaps thats just from a political point of view......A power point of view..........I mean if your part of the upper echelons and affluent strata of an undemocratic country you wouldn't necessarily want some other country to come along and tell you to do it their way or the highway..... Mstrobject, I think they call that the "Pancakes grow on trees in the U.S." theory. People in foreign countries watch American cop shows where detectives live in multi-million dollar condos on the Calif or Florida coast and drive Ferraris as they go about their daily errands and those people think; "I too can live in a house like that and drive a Ferrari if I sneak into America!"

MstrObjectmaker -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:43:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 So....illegal immigration is our "fault" because as a country we're so damned successful? That we are somehow obligated to raise up every nation on earth? Ummm.....don't these same nations want the US to be a tad LESS meddlesome? I'm not aportioning any blame here....just pointing out that its not surprising that people who live in a much less democratic and affluent society will risk just about anything to get to a society that is..... And yes you are right, alot of these nations do want the US to be less meddlesome.....but then perhaps thats just from a political point of view......A power point of view..........I mean if your part of the upper echelons and affluent strata of an undemocratic country you wouldn't necessarily want some other country to come along and tell you to do it their way or the highway..... Mstrobject, I think they call that the "Pancakes grow on trees in the U.S." theory. People in foreign countries watch American cop shows where detectives live in multi-million dollar condos on the Calif or Florida coast and drive Ferraris as they go about their daily errands and those people think; "I too can live in a house like that and drive a Ferrari if I sneak into America!" Personally I don't see anything wrong with that supposition.......thats what I think.....lol But mine would be a Harley or a Corvette not a Ferrari........but wait that Ferrari was a Corvette....wasn't it?[:D]

MstrObjectmaker -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 10:45:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight And this is why we should just invade Mexico. According to the plot of "The Day after tomorrow" your gonna want to move there anyway when mother nature bites back........so you might as well get a head start....... That way you would have a much smaller border to patrol....... Excellent!!! Now just ask your government to look the other way. I think you'll find that "my" government will always follow your lead where ever you wish to go........something about historical ties or some other BS......

popeye1250 -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 11:15:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight And this is why we should just invade Mexico. According to the plot of "The Day after tomorrow" your gonna want to move there anyway when mother nature bites back........so you might as well get a head start....... That way you would have a much smaller border to patrol....... Excellent!!! Now just ask your government to look the other way. I think you'll find that "my" government will always follow your lead where ever you wish to go........something about historical ties or some other BS...... MstrObject, so you guys have debris collectors there too? Sorry, I meant "degree collectors."

CreativeDominant -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 11:30:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrObjectmaker Personally......it seems rather strange to me that a country that was built on the backs of immigrants from all over the world should have such a draconian immigration system....... I mean the only section of the US population that can be truly classed as "American" are the North American Indian nations and look what a bum deal they've been given by you other American immigrants...... And anybody who holds with this idea that immigrants somehow dampen down what it means to be American.......shame on you...... As far as I can see immigrants are only Okay as long as they stick to those jobs that you "American" citizens won't touch with a barge pole.......as soon as they begin to pursue higher education and a better way of life you want to deport them...... As far as I am concerned anybody who has the shear guts and determination to up roots and follow their dream of a better life should be welcomed by the country that invented pioneerism....... Because one day the shoe just might be on the other foot........ Odd sentiment coming from someone who lives in a country where these laws were recently adopted: Reporter: Jennifer Macey MARK COLVIN: France has adopted tough new immigration laws. Migrants seeking to join their families already living in France may soon have to undergo DNA tests to prove their kinship. Originally, the DNA test was going to be compulsory for all potential migrants. Now the test is optional and will be paid for by the French government rather than those seeking visas. But critics say the bill is still racist, and argue that genetics should not be the basis for determining French citizenship. As far as you're concerned, anyone who has the guts to leave their country and move here should be allowed in? But then, you are not paying for the social programs that many who have done just that and have been allowed in or are here illegally enjoy, are you? As for them doing work that "Americans" won't do, that is their choice, is it not? If they do not wish to do it, then they can always stay where they are. And since you brought it up...why don't you come forth with referenced articles about real people who have been deported for attempting to better themselves through education? Or are you referring only to those who were here illegally to begin with and their application for financial aid to attend an institution of higher learning alerted authorities to the fact that they were dealing with an ILLEGAL immigrant...not "undocumented" alien...who wanted American taxpayers to foot his bill?

kittinSol -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 11:42:18 AM)
Are you perhaps falling prey to the manipulation that immigration is at the root of all of America's ailments? Politicians are always jumping on this particular bandwagon when things are bad: what easier way than to point the finger and say "it's everybody's fault but our own"? The situation in France is absolutely appalling, but that's what happens when someone like Sarkozy is elected (himself, the son of a Hungarian immigrant, incidentally, and he probably wouldn't have been able to live in France had someone like him been in power when he was a baby). I understand this topic is an emotional one... still, it never does any harm to keep a cool head and consider the facts before the rumours. In the end though, it's not worthy of this country to carry out such absurd bureaucratic decisions to the detriment of reason and fairness.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 11:44:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjan Article in NY Times RE this topic. Well done, imo The Great Immigration Panic: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/opinion/03tue1.html?em&ex=1212724800&en=7c6e9e46b8924b64&ei=5070 Ah yes...a liberal article by a liberal reporter for a liberal newspaper. In summer 2004, the newspaper's then public editor (ombudsman), Daniel Okrent, wrote a piece in which he concluded that the Times did have a liberal bias in coverage of certain social issues, gay marriage being the example he used. He claimed that this bias reflected the paper's cosmopolitanism, which arose naturally from its roots as a hometown paper of New York City. [28] Okrent did not comment at length on the issue of bias in coverage of "hard news," such as fiscal policy, foreign policy, or civil liberties. Okrent noted that the paper's coverage of the Iraq war was, among other things, insufficiently critical of the George W. Bush administration. So we should not look at an article about an issue as "touchy-feely" as immigration can be as being capable of having a certain slant or an agenda because it is in "The Times"?

popeye1250 -> RE: Immigration law: something's got to give. (6/4/2008 11:47:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Are you perhaps falling prey to the manipulation that immigration is at the root of all of America's ailments? Politicians are always jumping on this particular bandwagon when things are bad: what easier way than to point the finger and say "it's everybody's fault but our own"? The situation in France is absolutely appalling, but that's what happens when someone like Sarkozy is elected (himself, the son of a Hungarian immigrant, incidentally, and he probably wouldn't have been able to live in France had someone like him been in power when he was a baby). I understand this topic is an emotional one... still, it never does any harm to keep a cool head and consider the facts before the rumours. In the end though, it's not worthy of this country to carry out such absurd bureaucratic decisions to the detriment of reason and fairness. Kittin, Mexico doesn't have much "reason or fairness" when it comes to immigration either. And if you get caught a second time sneaking into their country it's a ten year prison sentence. Should we adopt their policy? And Armenia needs "smart people" more than the U.S. does. As a matter of fact I'd like to ship a bunch of our "smart people" over to them. The last thing we need is more "smart people" or "cheap labor." Even people with degrees are having a tough time making a living in this country.

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