Nationalize the oil Companies (Full Version)

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JohnSteed1967 -> Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 4:58:50 AM)

Here's the thing, Not sure if it was Teddy or Franklin Roosevelt that drafted the coal miners, but there is a history of the government stepping in and taking over a vital national resource during times of crisis.

Jimmy Carter (Cringe) proposed nationalizing the Oil companies as a way of relieving the national debit.

I know for a fact, that much of the oil coming off the Alaskan piple line is loaded into boats heading for CHINA.

We can't get action out of this president, but I think we should start a push with the new president to pass a law that says very simply the following : If its oil and it found with in the boundries of the us, its ours. Its not to be bought, sold or traded!
and that the resources of any oil company doing business in America now belong to us.

I mean come on, the Saudi's have like .10 gas and Brazil? Come on Hugo Chavez the whole country's oil system is nationalized. Before the US Blundered into IRAQ their oil system was nationalized!



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 5:19:32 AM)

Agreed.



Archer -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 6:32:53 AM)

And exactly what do you propose happens to the stock holders of the oil companies that you just had the government take over?
You know the various Union pension plans the various mutual funds people have in the retirement accounts, etc you know the actual owners of over half of the stock in the "Big Oil" companies?

Always quick to hollar for nationalizing a privately held company because you don't happen to actually know who it is that owns it.

Robert J. Shapiro, undersecretary of commerce for economic affairs under President Bill Clinton. "The data show that ownership of industry shares is broadly middle class, with the majority of industry shares held by institutional investors, often on behalf of millions of Americans through mutual funds, pension funds and individual retirement accounts."

1. Almost 43 percent of oil and natural gas company shares are owned by mutual funds and asset management companies that have mutual funds. Mutual funds manage accounts for 55 million U.S. households with a median income of $68,700.

2. Twenty seven percent of shares are owned by other institutional investors like pension funds. In 2004, more than 2,600 pension funds run by federal, state and local governments held almost $64 billion in shares of U.S. oil and natural-gas companies. These funds represent the major retirement security for the nation’s current and retired soldiers, teachers and police and fire personnel at every level of government.

3. Fourteen percent of shares are held in IRA and other personal retirement accounts. Forty five million U.S. households have IRA and other personal retirement accounts, with an average account value of just over $22,000.

So you propose just taking that stock without compensation?
You propose no reembursement for the loss in value to those "Mainly middel class owners of stock in "Big Oil"?





Irishknight -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 6:34:01 AM)

I bet gas prices would start coming down if this was brought up in debate by the candidates.



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:09:43 AM)

Fuck 'em. Imminent domain.

Much of that oil actually belongs to the commons anyway...it certainly doesn't belong to the oil companies.



Archer -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:17:54 AM)

So in this case you're all for "fucking" a large segment of the middle class. OK just wanted to be sure I had it figured right.



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:23:41 AM)

To whom does the oil belong?



Archer -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:27:15 AM)

To the people with the deed to the mineral rights maybe? Or maybe to the people (company) who the government leased the rights to for a fee if it was on public property? want the government to get a larger chunk of the money without in effect stealing, then all that is required is for the Goverment to lease the rights to oil on public land at a higher rate.





aliasmoniker -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:33:15 AM)

 I take it you mean the US. The companies are US companies? You would be talking about the idea of commonwealth, but the US is a capitalist country that prizes private property above all else. In the US people do not think ahead and act together. They just have spasms when things cost too much.  They spasm until a product is available to either solve their problem or erase their anxiety about it. I suggest riding a bicycle and distilling your own alcholic beverage. Or you could spend more and buy a hybrid car and get a prescription for an anti-despressant. Please focus instead on our real problems, which are gay marriage and terrorists.



Archer -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:46:14 AM)

You also I'm sure have taken into account that there are large number of wells located on private property which the oil companies pay the owner a lease for the rights to remove the oil/ gas. So I assume you are equally for the government just taking over those wells and to bad so sad to the property owner they get nothing for their diminished value, let alone the oil and gas itself should they own the mineral rights ( oh wait those got take away as well). More power and money to the government taken away from individuals. (stock holders, property owners, etc)



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:50:12 AM)

I'm going to shift this discussion to water for a moment...

Multi-national corporations are very busy in the U.S. getting water rights from cities in order to bottle the water and sell it as such: bottled water. Why do this? Because something that costs less than one penny out of the tap can be sold for over a dollar once inside a bottle. Neat trick, huh? Interestingly, the water from the tap is every bit as healthy as bottled water - often more so.

People in those cities are getting fairly pissed off about it though. Nestle goes in and wants it all, leaving little or far less water for everyone else's use. It's all perfectly legal: Nestle greased the right hands and got the correct rights to take the water. People's objections were overruled by the right hands that got greased - most people call them politicians. And Nestle therefore legally gets to take from ordinary people what cost them almost nothing from the tap and sell it back to them for over a dollar a bottle.

Now here's a big shocker for some of you: many of us feel that we have a right to things like water, air, sufficient food, and other resources that we may need. Nothing - not even the government - can take away the fundamental right of anyone to the same resources as others have. Many of these resources are shared - part of the commons. But the government wants to administrate control of some resources as if those resources were of a different category and not part of the commons.

Well, I object.



kittinSol -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:50:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aliasmoniker

Or you could spend more and buy a hybrid car and get a prescription for an anti-despressant. Please focus instead on our real problems, which are gay marriage and terrorists.



[sm=biggrin.gif]



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 7:54:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
You also I'm sure have taken into account that there are large number of wells located on private property which the oil companies pay the owner a lease for the rights to remove the oil/ gas.


How far down should such rights extend? To the center of the earth? Beyond? The other side of the earth? Just where does this surface oil lead down to? A pocket of oil below the surface of the earth?

It's starting to sound like the commons to me - like it belongs to everyone.



Archer -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 8:16:07 AM)

Mineral rights have a legal definitionlook it up if you want to know exactly how far down they go., but they do apply only to those minerals within the boundy of your propery lines.

On the subject of water, so long as the water being removed is not reducing the amount of water available to the public at the tap, it's a matter of choice. Nobody is forcing you to buy the bottled water. Fill a bottle at home from the tap like I do and you pay pennies. Unless the ability to fill your own bottles is reduced the company is not effecting your rights.





SugarMyChurro -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 9:13:06 AM)

I don't want to hijack this thread to talk about water instead of oil - but much of the same thinking applies. There is enormous infrastructure that must be provided to dispose of plastic bottles. Enormous waste is created on both ends of creation and waste.

And I made the point that people were complaining that there water usage was being hampered. There's just no compelling reason to allow anyone the special privilege of bottling it at the expense of the rights of others.

The same goes for oil.

You make a point of laws allowing for the taking of rights away from the commons - that people have a mineral right, or a license. Well, here's another legal creation for you:

Imminent domain. We want it, we take it, it technically it belongs to the commons anyway. It's that simple.

Buh-bye.



kdsub -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 9:27:34 AM)

Our problem ...there is not enough production in the United States to nationalize...even if we wanted to. Now if we wanted to invade Canada we could put a pretty good dent in our needs.

BUT don't think in the right circumstances nationalizing doesn't  work...It sure did in other parts of the world. So threats may carry some weight.

Just hold on a few more years.... soon food will be more important to the world then oil...Then we will have them over the bushel just like they have us over the barrel now.

Butch



cyberdude611 -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 9:29:25 AM)

The fastest way to bring oil prices down is to DRILL for it in America and build more refineries. The US has the potential to be the world's #3 oil PRODUCER behind Russia and the mid-east. Our gas wont only be cheap, cheap, cheap....but we can sell that oil to places like China for a lot of money. Instead the environmentalists and whacko socialists wont let the oil companies drill for oil here in America. Therefore we have to buy it from overseas producers in the mid-east along with having to provide those countries with security.

So you liberals can have your choice... if you want to "protect the environment" we need to get energy from somewhere. And right now the mid-east is the place we are getting that energy from. Which means we have to send our kids over there to die for it.

Our gas prices are high because of absolutely terrible domestic policy. It has nothing to do with the oil companies.



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 10:28:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Then we will have them over the bushel just like they have us over the barrel now.


This isn't about leverage to me, it's not about money per se either. It's about a certain standard of living - frankly, a low one for the purposes of this discussion.

Where I live people pretty much have to have their cars. We do have a bus system but I doubt it can handle any real people traffic. I doubt it reaches the outskirts of town either. If we start talking about shopping or groceries, etc - forget it. People really need their vehicles for work. People cannot afford to have gasoline jump from $1 something a few years ago to over $4 currently and for it not to hurt them somehow. These are wage earners, the backbone of American society. No one is handing them huge raises during a near recession, scandals in the mortgage sector, and all while the price of real estate is bottoming out. The fool Shrub is fighting wars we can't afford and taking the whole fucking economy with him.

When I learn that the current price of gas is around 40% speculator wanking I have to look for controls to that market. Nationalization is as good a plan as any.

It's a national security issue that just happens to play out with a dollars and cents focus too.

What can be created in law can be taken by the same means.



meatcleaver -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 10:52:54 AM)

Radical. The nationalization of vital resources makes sense. Since the European experimentation with privatization and running vital industries the American way, they have all proved less efficient, more costly for the consumer and a welfare handout to big money. No surprises there then.



christine1 -> RE: Nationalize the oil Companies (6/5/2008 11:00:58 AM)

imminent domain scares the shit out of me....where is the line drawn?  if it gets out of control then forget trying to own anything, especially if you're a business owner.  get too successful and you're at risk of being nationalized.  i agree oil is outrageous right now, but i'm not sure nationalization is the answer.



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