Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control

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SugarMyChurro -> Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 10:36:26 AM)
Revealed: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/revealed-secret-plan-to-keep-iraq-under-us-control-840512.html Bush wants 50 military bases, control of Iraqi airspace and legal immunity for all American soldiers and contractors ----- I am always intrigued by the requirement for legal immunity being sought. We obviously know that what we do in the world is majorly fucked up!

kittinSol -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 10:41:56 AM)
quote: Iraqi officials fear that the accord, under which US troops would occupy permanent bases, conduct military operations, arrest Iraqis and enjoy immunity from Iraqi law, will destabilise Iraq's position in the Middle East and lay the basis for unending conflict in their country. But the accord also threatens to provoke a political crisis in the US. President Bush wants to push it through by the end of next month so he can declare a military victory and claim his 2003 invasion has been vindicated. But by perpetuating the US presence in Iraq, the long-term settlement would undercut pledges by the Democratic presidential nominee, Barack Obama, to withdraw US troops if he is elected president in November. The timing of the agreement would also boost the Republican candidate, John McCain, who has claimed the United States is on the verge of victory in Iraq – a victory that he says Mr Obama would throw away by a premature military withdrawal. Just on time for the election... it's so evil [>:] . But at least the secret is out.

kittinSol -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 10:48:29 AM)
And after being under the boot of a brutal dictatorship, Iraq would find itself under the boot of a brutal foreign regime. quote: It is only now that Iraqis have woken up to the possibility that Iraq might be a signatory on a long-term security treaty with the US, as a price for regaining its full sovereignty. Iraqis must know its details and implications. How would such an alliance constrain Iraq's freedom in choosing its commercial, military and political partners? Will Iraq be obliged to openly or covertly support all of America's policies in the Middle East? These are issues of a vital nature that cannot be brushed aside with the Iraqi government's platitudes about "protecting Iraqi interests". A treaty of such singular significance to Iraq cannot be rammed through with less than a few weeks of debate. Otherwise, the proposed strategic alliance will most certainly be a divisive element in Iraqi politics. It will have the same disastrous effect as the treaty with Britain nearly eighty years ago. Ali Allawi

popeye1250 -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 10:49:42 AM)
Well he'll be gone in January so what he "wants" is irrelevant after that point, isn't it?

cyberdude611 -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 10:51:24 AM)
We've already got 18 permanent bases there...and an embassy that cost $1 billion dollars to construct. What the hell makes you people think we are ever going to leave? We still have military bases in Germany, Korea, and Japan and those wars were over with 50+ years ago! You think the powers that be give a damn about American democracy? The government thinks the average American is an idiot. No matter who wins the election, it doesnt matter. Already Obama is saying "MAYBE" 2013 is when we get out. And of course that date will keep getting pushed back. The Iraqi defense minister said a few months ago that they cannot maintain security in Iraq until at least 2019. So I believe we will have combat troops there until at least then...probably more like 2025 in my honest opinion. We will then maintain a presence there for god knows how long....100 years like McCain says. If we pull out before that government can stand on its own, you get Civil War. Millions of civians will be slaughtered in ethnic conflict, and Iran will no doubt take over the country.

kittinSol -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 10:51:52 AM)
The accord would engage the United States, not Dubbya. He would wash his hands off it once his presidency was over, but both countries would continue paying for his politicking.

popeye1250 -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 10:59:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol The accord would engage the United States, not Dubbya. He would wash his hands off it once his presidency was over, but both countries would continue paying for his politicking. Kittin, I dissagree. Just like this "free trade" nonsense you can get rid of things like that with one stroke of the legislative pen! Plus, if we keep going down this road we'll be Bankrupt long before Iraq is "stabilized" anyway. So it's really out of our control anyway isn't it?

kittinSol -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 11:01:37 AM)
Ever heard of a contract, popeye? That's pretty much what we're talking about here. You can't just erase a contract because it's become inconvenient to you. You've signed it, you own it.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 11:05:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol The accord would engage the United States, not Dubbya. He would wash his hands off it once his presidency was over, but both countries would continue paying for his politicking. Kittin, I dissagree. Just like this "free trade" nonsense you can get rid of things like that with one stroke of the legislative pen! Plus, if we keep going down this road we'll be Bankrupt long before Iraq is "stabilized" anyway. So it's really out of our control anyway isn't it? We are not going bankrupt because of the war. We are going bankrupt because of things like NAFTA and because the government keeps sticking its nose where it doesn't belong like in social programs and entitlements.. We found ways to pay for World War II even though the country was still in depression.

popeye1250 -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 11:09:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Ever heard of a contract, popeye? That's pretty much what we're talking about here. You can't just erase a contract because it's become inconvenient to you. You've signed it, you own it. LMAO! KittinSol, how long have you been in the U.S.? A "contract" is one of the easiest things to break! Have you ever been a landlady? lol Clinton signed that "agreement" that we couldn't ever mine coal in National forrests and he said it was absolutely ironclad unbreakable! He was fucking lying out of his teeth! He's a fucking Lawyer! He knew right when he was saying that that he was fucking lying! And it drove up the price of coal in Maylaisia and Indonesia, countries that contributed $money$ to his campaign! Right there he voided that "contract." You know, when you're "in" you're "in." When you're "out" you're "out." Clinton is no longer president, is he? Do you think that in 50 years if we need to start mining that coal that anyone's going to give two shits what "Clinton said?" "Start mining that coal, boys!" lol "Hey look! My match just set that "contract" on fire!" "What "contract?"

DomKen -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 11:36:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 We are not going bankrupt because of the war. We are going bankrupt because of things like NAFTA and because the government keeps sticking its nose where it doesn't belong like in social programs and entitlements.. Bullshit. We spend at least $24 billion a year in Iraq just on our military this is above and beyond the DoD's annual budget. Last year our budget deficit was $162 billion. So getting the hell out of Iraq would save several hundred american lives and indeterminate but large number of Iraqi lives and reduce the budget deficit by 15%. This of course leaves ourt the unknown sums that will be required in the future to care for permanently disabled vets and other costs associated with dragging out this conflict. No matter how you add it up getting rid of the Bush tax cuts and getting out of Iraq are the basic first steps to returning to a balanced budget.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 11:48:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 We are not going bankrupt because of the war. We are going bankrupt because of things like NAFTA and because the government keeps sticking its nose where it doesn't belong like in social programs and entitlements.. Bullshit. We spend at least $24 billion a year in Iraq just on our military this is above and beyond the DoD's annual budget. Last year our budget deficit was $162 billion. So getting the hell out of Iraq would save several hundred american lives and indeterminate but large number of Iraqi lives and reduce the budget deficit by 15%. This of course leaves ourt the unknown sums that will be required in the future to care for permanently disabled vets and other costs associated with dragging out this conflict. No matter how you add it up getting rid of the Bush tax cuts and getting out of Iraq are the basic first steps to returning to a balanced budget. And put us in depression. Iran gains control of the global oil market and oil will soar to 200 or 300 dollars a barrel. And you want to raise our taxes. That's your policy? How the hell is that going to help out economy? Tell me! I want to know! I want the government out of my life and out of my pockets. Why can't you socialists understand that? There shouldnt even be a federal income tax to begin with!!!

Mercnbeth -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 11:56:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Revealed: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/revealed-secret-plan-to-keep-iraq-under-us-control-840512.html Bush wants 50 military bases, control of Iraqi airspace and legal immunity for all American soldiers and contractors ----- I am always intrigued by the requirement for legal immunity being sought. We obviously know that what we do in the world is majorly fucked up! Interesting, the initial funding for this would have been included in the recent War Spending bill passed by Congress. That bill took care of all expenditures in Iraq and insure the US military presence in Iraq through July 2009, if I remember correctly. For the record, in favor of funding; Senator Obama and Senator Clinton. Voting in opposition, Senator McCain.

DomKen -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 12:04:57 PM)
So now I'm a socialist? Ever heard of ad hominen? Simple fact, Iran isn't going to take control of Iraq if we leave. Al Sadr is the guy most likely to come out on top, biggest militia and most supporters, and he isn't a particular favorite of the Iranians. Likely enough what would happen is Turkey would invade and cease the Kurdish oil producing region while the Sunni Shiite civil war would drag on for years. With the US borrowing less the dollar strengthens on the international market which will bring the price of crude down. On top of that a DoJ willing to investigate trust activities will make those enriching themselves by monkeying with the oil prices back off and that should burst the oil bubble quite completely.

DomKen -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 12:06:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Interesting, the initial funding for this would have been included in the recent War Spending bill passed by Congress. That bill took care of all expenditures in Iraq and insure the US military presence in Iraq through July 2009, if I remember correctly. For the record, in favor of funding; Senator Obama and Senator Clinton. Voting in opposition, Senator McCain. McCain did not vote on the bill at all. And there was nothing in that bill for implementation of this plan. Nice try though.

Irishknight -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 12:10:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Interesting, the initial funding for this would have been included in the recent War Spending bill passed by Congress. That bill took care of all expenditures in Iraq and insure the US military presence in Iraq through July 2009, if I remember correctly. For the record, in favor of funding; Senator Obama and Senator Clinton. Voting in opposition, Senator McCain. McCain did not vote on the bill at all. And there was nothing in that bill for implementation of this plan. Nice try though. I think that is what he was pointing out. It wasn't there but would have had to have been there for it to get started.

atursvcMaam -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 12:20:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So now I'm a socialist? Ever heard of ad hominen? Simple fact, Iran isn't going to take control of Iraq if we leave. Al Sadr is the guy most likely to come out on top, biggest militia and most supporters, and he isn't a particular favorite of the Iranians. Likely enough what would happen is Turkey would invade and cease the Kurdish oil producing region while the Sunni Shiite civil war would drag on for years. With the US borrowing less the dollar strengthens on the international market which will bring the price of crude down. On top of that a DoJ willing to investigate trust activities will make those enriching themselves by monkeying with the oil prices back off and that should burst the oil bubble quite completely. Did you mean cease or sieze? If the Turks were to cross the border, there are others that would consider it open season to invade. Actually the competition would get quite fierce.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 12:21:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So now I'm a socialist? Ever heard of ad hominen? Simple fact, Iran isn't going to take control of Iraq if we leave. Al Sadr is the guy most likely to come out on top, biggest militia and most supporters, and he isn't a particular favorite of the Iranians. Likely enough what would happen is Turkey would invade and cease the Kurdish oil producing region while the Sunni Shiite civil war would drag on for years. With the US borrowing less the dollar strengthens on the international market which will bring the price of crude down. On top of that a DoJ willing to investigate trust activities will make those enriching themselves by monkeying with the oil prices back off and that should burst the oil bubble quite completely. Well its obvious you are supporting Obama and he's a socialist. The only thing that comes out of his mouth is more government, more entitlements, more government, more handouts, more government, more taxes, and more government. And little do those kool-aid drinkers know that support him is that GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM!!! It is too big! It was never designed to be this big. I see Obama as a 2nd Jimmy Carter administration. We are going to have another gas crisis and another crisis with Iran. And we will have mortgage interest rates into the teens once again. I dont want taxes up. If anything, they should be cut along with government programs that give entitlements. That's what I want and will always support. The government doesnt control speculators or oil companies in other countries. The DOJ cant touch those people. They are paying $9 a gallon for gas in Europe. Everyone thinks there is some grand conspiracy concerning oil prices and there isn't. The problem is the Democrats refuse to increase production here at home therefore we have to buy more oil from the global market which forces prices up.

DomKen -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 12:24:45 PM)
Getting a little shrill even for you Dude. Let me when you've got something to say that doesn't include trying to poison the well.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control (6/5/2008 12:28:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Interesting, the initial funding for this would have been included in the recent War Spending bill passed by Congress. That bill took care of all expenditures in Iraq and insure the US military presence in Iraq through July 2009, if I remember correctly. For the record, in favor of funding; Senator Obama and Senator Clinton. Voting in opposition, Senator McCain. McCain did not vote on the bill at all. And there was nothing in that bill for implementation of this plan. Nice try though. Really - then why worry? How are any of the bases going to be built without funding? However, if you go by recent history, as long as enough pork is in the barrel, Congress will vote for anything. I was totally wrong on Senator McCain's vote. I knew it wasn't with the majority, but dead wrong on the negative. I should have know better than to trust memory at my age. He didn't vote a coward; as I referred to him in this thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_1878376/mpage_1/key_Senate%252CVote/tm.htm#1878376 . However, there were enough pushing for continuing the war to pass the bill 75-22. Turn that vote around and we'd be talking about the troops coming home, not worrying about if we're building new bases. It is too long a list, but if you click the link and you can see the names of the 22 Senators who didn't vote in favor of funding. View for yourself which party they were affiliated. quote: The argument I've always heard from the political party apologists is that the majority gained last November wasn't sufficient to accomplish the task of ending the war funding. How amazing it is that that number is easily obtained when generating pork to insure their reelection. This is my favorite quote from the event quote: "I hope President Bush watches closely what happened here today," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. "And I hope he heeds the call of a bipartisan, veto-proof majority of Congress and the thousands of veterans who know we owe our veterans the support they deserve." Note the focus. It's a good thing they approved better veteran disability care - they just funded a new batch. From the pool of Presidential candidates; interestingly Senator McCain, the one who is not in favor of immediate withdrawn did not vote. Although he said that the pork spending was irresponsible he didn't cast a NO note. Coward! The two running on a campaign of leaving Iraq as soon as , Senators Obama and Clinton, voted YES. - Hypocrites! However of course they focused on the veteran's benefits and the rest of the pork and not the core result of the vote - funding the Iraq war for almost another year; well into the next Presidency.

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