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Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 8:59:59 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		i just realised i had  been part of a hijack of the 'Voting for Obama' thread, so i thought i'd post this Op.
 
First, please let's define O/our terms, so W/we can discuss the same thing.
 
Private corporations and businesses have always been free to adopt (or not adopt) diversity policies in hiring and promoting workers.  They are not governmental bodies, and are restricted only by such laws as the Older Workers Protection Act, which prohibits discrimination based on age.  Many anti-discrimination laws exempt 'small businesses' from their application, and other loopholes exist.
 
Universities and other quasi-governmental bodies have been restricted by the Supreme Court's decision in the Univ. of Michigan case.  They can adopt diversity policies, but not quota systems.
 
Govermental agencies at the local, state and federal level have been the real repository of poliicies actually known as Affirmative Action.  Many have ostensibly objective standards and goals they must meet in the hiring and promotion of P/pl of color and women.  These policies are not now, and never have been, particularly effective.  Most governmental bodies are still heavily staffed by white M/men, particularly at the upper management levels.
 
Condalesa Rice and Janet Reno notwithstanding, there has been some measurable improvement in diversity in government, but not as much as is popularly believed.  For example, the veteran's preference continues to act to assure a primarialy white male staff at the US Postal Service, the Veterans' Administration, and many other governmental bodies.
 
This is of critical importance because governmental bodies, taken together, are the largest employer sector of the economy. 
 
What progress has been achieved will almost certainly be lost if employers and schools engage in a wholesale abandonment of diversity policies.  What is needed is action, including laws and regulations, that close loopholes...not repeal of these programs.
 
Personally, i have become more and more sensitized to the problem of age discrimination.  i know quite a few M/men over 40 who are apparently completely shut out of employment opportunities.  As the economy becomes more and more unstable, and the population ages, this type of discrimination will act to create a new underclass of poverty-striken P/pl if it is not effectively addressed.
 
All the above, of course, is my opinion. 
 
pinksugarsub

< Message edited by pinksugarsub -- 6/5/2008 9:08:58 PM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 9:04:52 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

What is needed is action, including laws and regulations, that close loopholes...not repeal of these programs.

My opinion: Shitcan all these useless programs and hire, fire, and promote on merit only.  We don't need a diverse workforce, just a competent one.


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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 9:05:07 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Status: offline 		I could not agree more. You rock, pink.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 6/5/2008 9:52:20 PM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 9:07:53 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Whatever happened to the idea to hire/promote the most qualified person regardless of race, age, or gender?

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 9:08:24 PM   
rubberpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What is needed is action, including laws and regulations, that close loopholes...not repeal of these programs.

My opinion: Shitcan all these useless programs and hire, fire, and promote on merit only.  We don't need a diverse workforce, just a competent one.



Wow!  What a concept!  Promoting and advancing based on merit, experience, and qualifications.    Geez, what will happen next? 

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 9:13:15 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What is needed is action, including laws and regulations, that close loopholes...not repeal of these programs.

My opinion: Shitcan all these useless programs and hire, fire, and promote on merit only.  We don't need a diverse workforce, just a competent one.



Celtic, Celtic, you can't do that!
That may actually work!

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 9:17:35 PM   
pinksugarsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Whatever happened to the idea to hire/promote the most qualified person regardless of race, age, or gender?


That is the primary intended effect of anti-discrimation laws.  However, so many loopholes in these laws exist that employers can hire and promote based on a preference for white males, as long as they are somewhat careful.  The EEOC is a joke and state 'little EEOC's' are no better.  What these agencies -- charged with enforcement of anti-discrimination laws -- actually seem most effective at is barring employees who have suffered prohibited discrimination from court, thereby eliminating any chance for a remedy.
 
BTW, EEOC = Equal Employment Opportunity Commision.
 
pinksugarsub

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 9:44:19 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Celtic, Celtic, you can't do that!
That may actually work!

I know, it's the radical in me......I actually expect folks to turn in a fair day's effort for their fair day's wage.


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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 9:47:41 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Whatever happened to the idea to hire/promote the most qualified person regardless of race, age, or gender?

Race, age, and gender were made part of the qualifications.


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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 10:05:57 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Whatever happened to the idea to hire/promote the most qualified person regardless of race, age, or gender?

Race, age, and gender were made part of the qualifications.



Anti-discrimination laws do not turn race, gender or age into 'qualifications'.  They merely prohibit a bias against the protected class in hiring, promotion and other matters.
 
Maybe You've misssed this, but many companies have engaged in actions which cause workers to lose T/their pensions or health insurance, in part by the practice of not hiring or retaining P/pl who might someday actually use such benefits. 
 
It is illegal, it is wrong, and it is allowed to occur freely to feed the greed of CEO's -- usually white males.
 
pinksugarsub

< Message edited by pinksugarsub -- 6/5/2008 10:07:23 PM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 10:09:27 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Anti-discrimination laws do not turn race, gender or age into 'qualifications'. They merely prohibit a bias against the protected class in hiring, promotion and other matters.

Your second sentence contradicts your first.


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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 10:19:05 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Anti-discrimination laws do not turn race, gender or age into 'qualifications'. They merely prohibit a bias against the protected class in hiring, promotion and other matters.

Your second sentence contradicts your first.



In what way?
 
pinksugarsub

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 10:20:46 PM   
abcbsex


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Status: offline 		Ugh. College Student here. Don't even get me STARTED on affirmative action in the admissions process for most major universities! But then that leads to the whole issue of colleges being too competitive for anyone to get a decent education anyways, and that's a whole can of worms in and of itself.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 10:23:18 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Anti-discrimination laws do not turn race, gender or age into 'qualifications'. They merely prohibit a bias against the protected class in hiring, promotion and other matters.

Your second sentence contradicts your first.



In what way?
 
pinksugarsub

You have a "protected" class.  By definition, that is a class held to a different standard.  How is that class formed?  On the basis of race, age, and gender.

Protecting some but not all workers is a hypocritical double standard. 


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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 10:24:59 PM   
Leatherist


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Joined: 12/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Anti-discrimination laws do not turn race, gender or age into 'qualifications'. They merely prohibit a bias against the protected class in hiring, promotion and other matters.

Your second sentence contradicts your first.



In what way?
 
pinksugarsub


Setting up a quota system that uses qualifications beyond perfomance is itself a bias.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 10:34:20 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		Man, i feel the pain of college students today.  Hasn't been very long since my UM graduated.
 
i have heard that there is a movement afoot to deny all federal student aid to A/anyone with any sort of drug conviction on T/their record, whether misdemeanor or felony, juvenile or adult.  Just another way to close the doors on P/pl seeking to improve T/their lives.
 
When i was a college student, aid came mainly in the form of grants; tuition and fees were reasonable; and i was able to pay off what little i had borrowed in five years after graduation.
 
However, by the mid-80's when i went to law school, grants were unheard of, student loans charged interest while i was in school, and tuition and fees were very, very high.  i'll be paying off those student loans tll i die.
 
Since then it seems it has only gotten worse.  Both Ohio and Florida, where i have been living, have passed tuition hikes every year in the double digit range.  i suppose the same thing is happening across the country.
 
It is so much more  difficult for today's young people to get a foothold on life than it was for me.  It sucks.
 
pinksugarsub 

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 10:38:10 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Anti-discrimination laws do not turn race, gender or age into 'qualifications'. They merely prohibit a bias against the protected class in hiring, promotion and other matters.

Your second sentence contradicts your first.



In what way?
 
pinksugarsub


Setting up a quota system that uses qualifications beyond perfomance is itself a bias.


Since 2002, following the Univ. of  Michigan decision, quota systems have been unconstitional. 
 
Does that clarify things?
 
pinksugarsub

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 11:09:59 PM   
chickpea


Posts: 446
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Los Angeles Area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What is needed is action, including laws and regulations, that close loopholes...not repeal of these programs.

My opinion: Shitcan all these useless programs and hire, fire, and promote on merit only.  We don't need a diverse workforce, just a competent one.



diversity and competency are not mutually exclusive. 

I always think a diverse workforce makes a company survives the longest, cuz when you get a bunch of people who think alike and act alike, that's when you loose the adaptability and you will lose when times change and a company has to adapt to different demands.  And believe me, times will change...more often than not in this world accelerated by the internet, and barriers being knocked down all around, with our reach extending well beyond the local in this world stage.

If a group of people can be diverse, and be mature enough to maintain good working relationships with those different from themselves, that's when you have a ton of fuel (synergy) to the engine (company running). 

< Message edited by chickpea -- 6/5/2008 11:13:15 PM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 11:20:40 PM   
chickpea


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Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Los Angeles Area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Anti-discrimination laws do not turn race, gender or age into 'qualifications'. They merely prohibit a bias against the protected class in hiring, promotion and other matters.

Your second sentence contradicts your first.



In what way?
 
pinksugarsub

You have a "protected" class.  By definition, that is a class held to a different standard.  How is that class formed?  On the basis of race, age, and gender.

Protecting some but not all workers is a hypocritical double standard. 



I doubt that without affirmative action, that all classes would be treated equally.  I think without affirmative action, the protected class is the majority, because we always like those who are like ourselves.  So white guy interviews two equally qualified candidates a black guy and a white guy, he'll more than likely "protect" the white guy and choose him.  Because he's more like him.  So I doubt that affirmative action is protecting some and not others.  You are looking at affirmative action within a vacuum.  Affirmative action operates within a very twisted skewed world that is bent on excluding blacks and promoting whites.  I can't see how you can think of it any other way.  If you see a white guy come up to you, you'd probably treat him different than if a black guy comes up to you... that's the proof in the pudding that without affirmative action, there is preferrential treatment...

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RE: Affirmative Action - 6/5/2008 11:39:10 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		You know when you think about it this is just another way that this "Global Economy" just isn't working out.
Why does it seem that only the U.S. has to "compete?"
If it were a really level playing field and really "free trade" we could bury all those foreign countries.
How do you "compete" against a country that only pays it's workers .50 cents an hour?

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