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A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 2:53:51 AM

wet4youruse

Posts: 4
Joined: 5/17/2008
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I was wondering how true dominants would answer this question:

If you lied to your sub/slave, hiding the fact that you were training another sub, knowing it hurt her deeply, would you (as a dominant man or woman) be able to ask her to forgive you or would you just expect her to 'get over it' ?
(This is not my situation but the question stems from a conversation that I recently had with a Master here on collarme.)

< Message edited by wet4youruse -- 6/6/2008 3:07:53 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 3:55:22 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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For us, that's a deal breaker. He would no more expect me to just get over it than I would expect him to get over it if I were cheating on him. Honesty and trust are paramount between us.

However that doesn't mean that it's a deal breaker for everyone. If you live apart and only get together for scening, then you might well not care seeing as you practice safe sex anyway. Monogamy should be discussed upfront. Some people are monogamous, some poly, and some get off on having secret relationships.

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RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 4:45:21 AM

RavenMuse

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IMO anyone who would resort to lies in such a situation isn't a damn Dominant at all so wouldn't be IN such a position!

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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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Post #: 3

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 5:07:41 AM

Dnomyar

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I don't understand why he would not be upfront about it in the first place. What's the problem with training more than one sub?

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Post #: 4

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 5:25:50 AM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar
I don't understand why he would not be upfront about it in the first place.

The only reason I can see is that he knows the first girl would react badly to it, hasn't the guts to face the work involved in settling any issues OR if the girl really isn't suited to poly, facing the fact that what he has got isn't compatable with what he wants. Someone with integrity and Dominance would face those issues, someone with neither will resort to lies and deception.

WIITWD relies heavily on TRUST...such a person can't be trusted... about ANYTHING. IMO forgivness isn't an issue in such cases, the girl's next Dom/Master is the issue because the old one ain't worth her time.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 5

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 5:55:38 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
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From: Chicago, IL
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given that it was done behind my back without any consideration to my thoughts/feelings and permission (yes, Daddy would have to ask first to get my opinion about adding someone else to our family), i don't know if it would end my relationship with Daddy however it would certainly take away the trust i have for Him. i wouldn't be able to forgive Him either.

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(in reply to wet4youruse)

Post #: 6

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 6:03:05 AM

MySweetSubmssive

Posts: 1139
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From: Lehigh Valley, PA
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I'm not sure that being a dominant, true or otherwise, has much to do with it.

*If* there is an agreement that there will be no outside partners, then what you have described falls into the category of cheating or infidelity. If.

If there is not an agreement about being monogamous, then it gets more complicated.

Mss

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Post #: 7

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 6:04:30 AM

Owner4SexSlave

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First off... this is one screwed up situation that happened.   Case in point where honestly to begin with would have been best.

Ok... here's my thought on the matter.   This probally what I myself would do, If I had somehow got myself into the same mess.

I would apologize to the sub/slave but not ask for forgiveness, nor expect it in any way shape of form.   Asking for forgiveness is like asking the other person to release you from your responsibility of your own actions.  Accept responsibility and Apologize.   Keep it at that. Don't ask for forgiveness, don't beg for it, don't in way shape or form attempt to push for it.

The offense just may or may not be forgiveable.  If anything Forgiveness may take some time. It will take time to heal things.   Asking for forgiveness, more less forces the sub/slave into a situtation where they just might not be able to do what is being asked of them. It might even force them to lie to you, telling you something you want to hear. Not a Good thing.

Expecting them to simply "Get over it", that's not realistic. Again, it takes time for people to get over things that happen.

My advice is to be Patient and understanding afterwards.   Do not try to force them to "Get Over it".   The sub/slave will need time.   They will let you know, if and when they are over it, or if they can not get over it.

If the sub/slave can not get over it. This might mean that relationship has become damaged to the point it can't get become fixed.

< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 6/6/2008 6:05:28 AM >

(in reply to wet4youruse)

Post #: 8

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 6:34:17 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
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From: Kalamazoo, MI
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As a Domme, I never knowingly lie to my subs. Dishonesty is the antithesis to building trust.

IF someone lied about this they might feel no reason to apologize. After all, they've already come up with a reason in their own mind to justify the lie.

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Post #: 9

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 7:01:03 AM

MrSpectacular

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Given the scenario - I am not sure I would be looking for forgiveness or to apologize - I think I would want to exlore what caused me to stray in the first place - or to seek out another sub. Apologies are fine - but they gloss over what could be deep underlying issues - that unless addressed are not going away.

N

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RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 7:49:30 AM

SilentTigresss

Posts: 261
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How could you still have a relationship then ?

(in reply to sambamanslilgirl)

Post #: 11

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 8:06:05 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wet4youruse

I was wondering how true dominants would answer this question:

If you lied to your sub/slave, hiding the fact that you were training another sub, knowing it hurt her deeply, would you (as a dominant man or woman) be able to ask her to forgive you or would you just expect her to 'get over it' ?
(This is not my situation but the question stems from a conversation that I recently had with a Master here on collarme.)

I'll come at this from a different angle.

Needing to lie to a submissive indicates that the reference to 'Dom' or 'Master' is nothing more than a meaningless label. Confidence in your relationship and who you are eliminates the need to lie. Having control means you don't have to lie. Telling a lie to a person would say that the truth would put control in the hands of the person who is being lied to; as if the truth would have them walk away unilaterally.

If you feel you have to lie your 'power' is on shaky ground. Insecurity is keeping you from telling the truth. It doesn't matter what the subject. Before the, "yeah, but what if..." responses start; if its beyond the context of a 'surprise party'; lying, compromised integrity, can not be a part of a relationship requiring trust as a condition of success.

The situation you describe seems to be a 'sin' of omission, sometimes referred to as a 'white lie'; often rationalized with sentiments like; "I didn't want to hurt you." A guise for insecurity at best; more often it is an aversion to responsibility. Again, in this specific situation, if you are in control and have confidence in your position within the relationship; lying about training another isn't necessary. If the submissive has as a condition of submission exclusivity that indicates where the 'true' power is within the dynamic. 'Conditional submission' is the 'true Master'.

However, consider the source. You requested replies from "true dominants"; another label that, since it has no meaning to me, I can't represent myself as such.

"Get over it!"; usually a response given by someone needing to deflect criticism who'd rather not talk about or consider being 'caught' along with the consequences. Forgiveness? That's an emotional prerogative. Pragmatic acceptance of reality is, in my opinion, a better goal.

(in reply to wet4youruse)

Post #: 12

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 9:22:12 AM

SirKaton

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Joined: 3/31/2008
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I agree that there is no reason to lie to your sub about taking on another submissive and that such a move can very well put that dynamic in jeopardy.

Trust is the very foundation the D/s dynamic is built upon and it is incumbent upon the Dom/me to make sure it is maintained. Many people approach a D/s dynamic no differently than a vanilla one and as such, hold the same expectations. So when trust is broken, it allows more room for the submissive to begin question the relationship not as a D/s issue, but in standard terms of engagement.

And that is where the Dom/me needs to take care of the business of setting expectations. If there is a change of what has been determined at the outset for the type of D/s relationship and number of submissives a Dom/me might engage (i.e. one vs. more than one) , then it is their responsibility to make sure the submissive understands exactly what that change is.

I think the issue is MUCH different when that has NOT been explicitly spelled out. Then such a situation leaves too much room for assumptions and guessing, ending up in someone (usually the submissive) getting hurt because without that direction they implicitly applied “standard” relationship protocol (i.e. a monogamous relationship) to the exchange with the Dom/me.

This is where it gets tricky. If this situation has occurred, a Dom/me that understands this is going to help heal the submissive from such a blow to their esteem, value and even ego and make it “ok”, and then proceed forward, albeit cautiously, carefully and wisely.

But that also might mean on the submissive’s part, after we’ve talked about “the what’s and why’s of why there was no mention of an addition of a second submissive” that it’s time to “get over it”.

When there isn’t good communication ahead of time, as much as a Dom/me may have to explain their actions (which I don’t believe one should always have with their sub, even when there is an issue like this), sometimes a sub will just have to take it on the chin as a consequence of their submission.

But every situation and each dynamic is different. There is no one universal course of action applicable to every situation and the most prudent one is dictated by how well a Dom/me knows their submissive. The fact that the Dom/me made comment about not wanting to hurt the submissive meant they already had a good idea, if not already had known what the response was going to be. Yet they did it anyway without regard to the submissive’s feelings, and that for me is simply a reckless, messy and sloppy way to conduct themselves in this lifestyle.

< Message edited by SirKaton -- 6/6/2008 9:29:23 AM >

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RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 10:14:33 AM

FRSguy

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Well first of all if lied that badly I would have expected the relationship to come to an end. If I knew that it was a hardlimit and did it anyways then of course there is the thing where you could say that I would be willing for the relationship to come to an end before I did it so..... the answer to the questoin is both. If we had agreed that the relationship was to continue I would have to say I was sorry and the sub would have to get over it. I dont deal very well with past things being thrown in my face so if the sub agreed she wanted to continue the relationship yet threw the even in question in my face every time she felt a twitch of jelousy then she would have to move on. I dont jump through hoops for anyone.

(in reply to SirKaton)

Post #: 14

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 10:38:40 AM

sabirah

Posts: 97
Status: offline

greetings wet4youruse
In my opinion it has nothing to do with being dominant, It has everything to do with morals, and integrity. A lie is a lie and when in a relationship, if one chooses to not tell the truth there is no excuse the turst is broken. If the dominant is expecting the submissive to just "get over it" to me it shows a lack of accountability for their own actions. forgiveness is offered to those who are unaware of what they did wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wet4youruse

I was wondering how true dominants would answer this question:

If you lied to your sub/slave, hiding the fact that you were training another sub, knowing it hurt her deeply, would you (as a dominant man or woman) be able to ask her to forgive you or would you just expect her to 'get over it' ?
(This is not my situation but the question stems from a conversation that I recently had with a Master here on collarme.)

_____________________________

sincerely,
sabirah

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It is a sound the girl will never forget.

(in reply to wet4youruse)

Post #: 15

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 11:17:26 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wet4youruse
ask her to forgive you or would you just expect her to 'get over it' ?

I'd "get over it" by ending the relationship. If the person I trust with my life lied to me on that level, there's no point in going forward with the relationship.

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Post #: 16

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 12:57:21 PM

SEGAworkman

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Lying is anathema to this lifestyle from either party, and any supposed "Dominant" who lied ain't worth his salt - forgiven or not. "Its none of your concern," should be an acceptable answer to any sub. I think the question is more interesting without the issue of lying attached: Should a Dom ever ask forgiveness, and if so, how? My feeling is that being in control of a sub does not imply perfection (in fact such a complex responsibility assures the opposite), and mistakes should be addressed honestly by the offender, Dom or sub, and amends made IMPERSONALLY, for the common good. Amends to my mind are not debts to individuals who have been offended. Amends are a commitment to do better in the future - a regret followed by an about-face for the future good, NOT "making up" to the other party for the past. That's all I require from my subs, not some groveling emotional plea, and it is all I will give to a sub in return.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 17

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 12:58:29 PM

SirMIkeSD

Posts: 613
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: San Diego, Ca
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He's a lair and does/did not have the balls to fess up. Do you want this man as your Dom.

Mike

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Post #: 18

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 1:00:21 PM

Leatherist

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The only reason to lie would be failure on my part.

It's better to be man enough to admit mistakes and correct them. Only children try to justify them with a "story".

If you don't like to eat crow-don't throw out meat for them.

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Post #: 19

RE: A question of forgiveness - 6/6/2008 1:59:35 PM

antipode

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The problem, my dear, with "what if" questions, is that you get fictitious answers. You know, "What would you do if somebody boiled your head?" type of stuff. People don't know what they would do if they were in a situation they have never encountered before. So you should ask: "Have you..." and "What did you do..", etc.

(in reply to wet4youruse)

Post #: 20

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