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RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/7/2008 8:05:18 PM   
caro44


Posts: 270
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm Glad you guys are not all in the same room or there might be bloodshed.  And BTW I agree with WinsomeDefiance, not that that matters to any of you.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/7/2008 8:17:02 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

I happen to agree with both of you, popeye and DA that military service and training  are a great way to improve one's lot in life. I think it is often a good choice for many young people, although, under current conditions, I would caution people to be prudent about enlisting.

I have a lot of respect for veterans, am grateful for their service, in war and peace and support veterans' benefits wholeheartedly.

DA, sorry to have misjudged your personal accomplishments by making assumptions that proved incorrect.



Not a problem cjan... I actually am entitled to certain benefits, such as a VA mortgage or GI Bill college / training, but I never used them... I went in as a college grad - and came out with a good earning power so I didnt take advantage of the system. (Like when I went to community college to get my aircraft mechanics license I paid the $33 a credit hour out of my own pocket.)

I dont mean this to sound condescending, as Im sincere in it, but I figure the bennies are more for the enlisted guys who dont necessarily have a bachelors degree and the credit worthiness for a regular mortgage... I dont know if it works this way but I figure the system has finite resources so if I took that mortgage as an O-4 with two graduate degrees and a six figure income, there might not be one available for some kid in Iowa trying to buy a double wide for his wife and two kids after he just gets out....

As for not availing myself of the VA medical care - thats survival not altruism. The state of medical care for veterans in this country is a national tragedy - it always has been and always will be and a trip to a VA facility is the best argument in the world against govt run healthcare....

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/7/2008 11:05:38 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Ok this is downright fucking frightening ... But this is a REAL video published to teach Hurricane Katrina refugees how to get a job...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPGPKQMNgfE

I mean it is pretty damned obvious watching this that the concept of gainful employment is completely foreign to these folks. I mean hello - come with an index card with your information on it? Dont have a rap music answering machine message? Dress appropriately and come on time? LMFAO. Yeah these were productive contributing folks who needed this training....

Now if you want to be fair about it - look at what we in Houston have had to deal with because of these people...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xigVnqtVpSI

This is what the bleeding hearts dont want people to know and what makes people think Im a monster. The one woman in the video said it best - we put out a helping hand and we got bit...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 6/7/2008 11:10:31 PM >

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 12:20:52 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Alumbrado, you didn't answer my question but, I can understand why you might not want to do so.

As we all know, CM has many stock avatars to chose from, I'm curious as to why you chose that one.

I have no lack of compassion for Katrina's victims, be they in La., Ms, Al, Oh, or Kentucky. I've said so , repeatedly, in this thread. I'm sure you're aware of that, if you choose to ignore it, so be it. Again, imo, to cherry pick facts or to tell partial truths knowingly is intellectually dishonest.

Yes, Kwan Yin is the Boddhisatva of compassion.
What the Buddha said to be "the goal" of spiritual practice is, in his words, " total deliverance of the mind", sometimes called "enlightenment". Nevertheless, he taught that, among other things, compassion was to be cultivated first and foremost amongst human qualities as a cornerstone for spiritual practice and progress. It is part of the foundation upon which  practice toward"total deliverance of the mind" is built. In other words, no compassion, no "enlightenment". Seems quite obvious, doesn't it ? As long as we perceive ourselves as being separate from others, we perpetuate our separation and perceived isolation.

Finally, illusions, which we are all vulnerable to are less serious  impediments to "enlightenment" or even a less exalted state of clarity than delusions, which are self deceptions that we create, cling to and protect, at all costs, as being "me" and "mine".

Btw, sir, are you familiar with the "Metta Sutra"? Here is a link to it. It is, as suggested by the Buddha, a foundation for spiritual prctice and development.

http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/sutras/metta-sutra.html



Oh, I answered it forthrightly...but I can see that is yet another bit of reality to which you don't want to admit. 
And departure from rectitude is in no wise comparable to enlightenment.

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 7:02:55 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Caro, I also agree with what WD had to say regarding folks being aware of and telling the whole story. There are always at least three versions of a "story" , "mine", "yours" and "the truth". Ever seen "Roshomon" or the Hollywood remake "The Outrage" ? Un fortunately , we humans tend to cling to our opinions and points of view tenaciously and often , deliberately or not, cherry picc "facts" to bolster sam and to advance an argument. I think all of us with different points of view have done so.

Alumbrado, I suppose you have answered my question to you, to a certain extent. I'm curious to know your point of view on the Metta Sutra. Care to , ahem, enlighten me ?


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 7:54:24 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Enlighten you? I already hit you over the head with a stick...what more do you want? 


I dont find any of the Theraveda rituals to be particularly relevant, and the notion of repeated chanting driving away evil ala the metta practices, isn't my thing.
I'm more of a zhan zhuang devotee, and I tend to leave religious dogma to those who have a need for it.


(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 8:44:04 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		I see. Well, of course, you are entitled to your opinion and you are free to cling to it.

As you may be aware, Theravada has it's roots in and draws it's lineage from the original teachings of the Buddha. The Metta Sutra is a translation derived from the original Pali, the language that the Buddha spoke and used in teaching.

My question to you, Alumbrado, was simply to inquire  about your  point of view of  the contents of the Sutra. Not to , at all, get into a  discussion of form of practice or dogma.

After many years of studying with Zen, Theravadan and Tibetan teachers, and practice, I also came to question the need for and usefullness of dogma and ritual. I came to appreciate Toni Packer's approach in such matters. However, I believe that there is much to learn from all traditions and teachings and try to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I'm amused by your "hitting me over the head with a stick..", etc. I'm sure you know the Zen story of there being four types of horses. The first type runs when it sees the shadow of the whip. The second type runs when it feels the sting of the whip. Third type when the whip tears it's flesh. The fourth type of horse doesn't run untill it feels the pain of the whip in the marrow of it's bones. I'm afraid I am the fourth type. One thing I like about the story is that it doesn't characterize any type as being "good" or "bad". Another is that it doesn't say that even the fourth type is not capable of winning the race.


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 8:55:08 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caro44

I'm Glad you guys are not all in the same room or there might be bloodshed.  And BTW I agree with WinsomeDefiance, not that that matters to any of you.


Actually, Caro, I find that it is often the impersonal communication of boards that causes the problems.  Mind you, a couple of statements made on this thread would still probably piss some people off in person but others would be viewed with the full emotional content of the speaker.  Its hard to call someone an emotionless bastard if you can look into their eyes and see the depths of their emotion.


(in reply to caro44)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 10:20:11 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

I see. Well, of course, you are entitled to your opinion and you are free to cling to it.

As you may be aware, Theravada has it's roots in and draws it's lineage from the original teachings of the Buddha. The Metta Sutra is a translation derived from the original Pali, the language that the Buddha spoke and used in teaching.

My question to you, Alumbrado, was simply to inquire  about your  point of view of  the contents of the Sutra. Not to , at all, get into a  discussion of form of practice or dogma.

After many years of studying with Zen, Theravadan and Tibetan teachers, and practice, I also came to question the need for and usefullness of dogma and ritual. I came to appreciate Toni Packer's approach in such matters. However, I believe that there is much to learn from all traditions and teachings and try to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I'm amused by your "hitting me over the head with a stick..", etc. I'm sure you know the Zen story of there being four types of horses. The first type runs when it sees the shadow of the whip. The second type runs when it feels the sting of the whip. Third type when the whip tears it's flesh. The fourth type of horse doesn't run untill it feels the pain of the whip in the marrow of it's bones. I'm afraid I am the fourth type. One thing I like about the story is that it doesn't characterize any type as being "good" or "bad". Another is that it doesn't say that even the fourth type is not capable of winning the race.



Interesting that you don't know the Buddhist story about being hit over the head with a stick to achieve enlightenment. (There is no 'etc.') 

Sorry that you can't grasp what the connection is between my avatar and my nick.  It couldn't be any plainer.

Perhaps some study with Mahayana teachers would help you with that xinyuan.

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 10:38:13 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		*Sigh*

I do know the story of the stick. It is a well worn version of a student being slapped, kicked, etc., by the teacher and ,voila, satori. And , in case you aren't aware, Zen is Mahayana.

Speaking of Zen stories, I wonder if you remember the one about the practiced, arrogant student having his first interview with an accomplished, humble Master. The student goes on and on about his learning and development trying to impress the teacher while the teacher listens in silence, Finally, the teacher pours a cup of tea for the student and keeps pouring while the cup overflows, The student exclaims "what are you doing, you fool ? My cup is already full !"
The teacher responds "Quite so".


< Message edited by cjan -- 6/8/2008 10:43:35 AM >

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 10:47:12 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Cjan, instead of pissing away $34.6 B of our Taxdollars on "foreign aid" that gets stolen anyway I'd much rather end that and give it to NOLA for 2-3 years.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 10:51:56 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

*Sigh*

I do know the story of the stick. It is a well worn version of a student being slapped, kicked, etc., by the teacher and ,voila, satori. And , in case you aren't aware, Zen is Mahayana.

Speaking of Zen stories, I wonder if you remember the one about the practiced, arrogant student having his first interview with an accomplished, humble Master. The student goes on and on about his learning and development trying to impress the teacher while the teacher listens in silence, Finally, the teacher pours a cup of tea for the student and keeps pouring while the cup overflows, The student exclaims "what are you doing, you fool ? My cup is already full !"
The teacher responds "Quite so".



No, Zen is Chan, Mahayana is many things, and you might want to take the time to figure out why you cannot grasp the connection between my nick and my avatar before you start comparing yourself to an accomplished Master.

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 11:03:54 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		I beg to differ, Chan is the chinese word for Zen Buddhism which, if you do some research, you will find was exported/imported from Japan to China. What I mean is that both Zen and Chan are Mahayana.Yes, Mahayana encompasses various practices as does Theravada.

I would never compare myself to a Master , sir. I simply reminded you of a Zen story that has a Master and an aspirant in it.

I do grasp the connection between your avatar and your nick. I was simply wondering why you would choose either, given your repeated statements that display your point of view.

< Message edited by cjan -- 6/8/2008 11:08:32 AM >

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 11:18:54 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

I beg to differ, Chan is the chinese word for Zen Buddhism which, if you do some research, you will find was exported/imported from Japan to China. What I mean is that both Zen and Chan are Mahayana.Yes, Mahayana encompasses various practices as does Theravada.

I would never compare myself to a Master , sir. I simply reminded you of a Zen story that has a Master and an aspirant in it.

I do grasp the connection between your avatar and your nick. I was simply wondering why you would choose either, given your repeated statements that display your point of view.


You don't have a clue what my point of view is, any more than you understand my choice of avatar, so you project yourself into them.  As I said, work on that  xinyuan.  Then maybe you can move up to yi.

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 12:15:46 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

I beg to differ, Chan is the chinese word for Zen Buddhism which, if you do some research, you will find was exported/imported from Japan to China. What I mean is that both Zen and Chan are Mahayana.Yes, Mahayana encompasses various practices as does Theravada.

Actually, you are backwards.

Ch'an Buddhism is generally ascribed to the Indian prince and monastic Bodhidharma who carried the core teachings to China during the 5th Century CE.  Ch'an Buddhism emerged as a distinct school of Buddhism within China in the 7th Century CE.

Zen Buddhism did not emerge as a distinct school of Buddism in Japan until the 12th Century CE, when Myoan Eisai (明菴栄西) traveled from Japan to China, and returned with both green tea and the teachings which became the Rinzai school of Zen Buddhism.

Ch'an is the antecedent of Zen.  Both are contained within the Mahayana ("Great Vehicle") Buddhist tradition.


_____________________________



(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 12:17:35 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Catholic Zen?  Almost a paradox, that.

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(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 2:15:02 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		celticlaird, thanks for correcting my misremembering of history re Chan/Zen. My point is that Chan and Zen are essentially the same and both Mahayana.

It is, however , beside the point of my query to Al.


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 2:21:20 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Cjan, instead of pissing away $34.6 B of our Taxdollars on "foreign aid" that gets stolen anyway I'd much rather end that and give it to NOLA for 2-3 years.

I can live with that.  I think its a wonderful idea.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 2:23:36 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Cjan, instead of pissing away $34.6 B of our Taxdollars on "foreign aid" that gets stolen anyway I'd much rather end that and give it to NOLA for 2-3 years.

I can live with that.  I think its a wonderful idea.

Only if priority is given to preserving the French Quarter, Jackson Square, and the Cafe du Monde..... beignets in the morning, New Orleans jazz at night....is there a better way to holiday?


_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 4:28:37 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

celticlaird, thanks for correcting my misremembering of history re Chan/Zen. My point is that Chan and Zen are essentially the same and both Mahayana.

It is, however , beside the point of my query to Al.



Essentially the same... in the sense that China and Japan are essentially the same. Or that New Orleans and the the town of Gulfport the day after Katrina made landfall were essentially the same (...not to mention what happened in the village of Kesaputta).

That may be enlightenment for you, but I say it needs more illumination.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/8/2008 4:56:56 PM >

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 80
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