RE: "The City That Care Forgot"

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: "The City That Care Forgot"

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: "The City That Care Forgot"

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 4 [5]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 5:02:52 PM

cjan

Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

celticlaird, thanks for correcting my misremembering of history re Chan/Zen. My point is that Chan and Zen are essentially the same and both Mahayana.

It is, however , beside the point of my query to Al.

Essentially the same... in the sense that China and Japan are essentially the same. Or that New Orleans and the the town of Gulfport after Katrina were essentially the same (...not to mention what happened in the village of Kesaputta).

That may be enlightement for you, but I say it needs more illumination.

quote:

Alumbrado quote:

No, Zen is Chan, Mahayana is many things

See your statement above made in post #71. So, which is it ? Chan and Zen essentially the same or as different as Japan and China ? I'm afraid, Al, that you can't have it both ways. Care to shed som illumination here ?

quote:

Ch'an(meditation) is a Buddhist tradition that originated in India. It was later transmitted to Japan where it became known as Zen, the name that Westerners are most familiar with. The goal of both Ch'an and Zen is the realization of one's true nature and the manifestation of that realization in our daily thoughts, words and actions

http://www.chungtian.org.au/ctt_chan.htm

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Profile

Post #: 81

RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 5:47:41 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

See your statement above made in post #71. So, which is it ? Chan and Zen essentially the same or as different as Japan and China ? I'm afraid, Al, that you can't have it both ways. Care to shed som illumination here ?

In all seriousness, I'm not sure you're ever going to get it.

How many experts did Buddha 'study and practice' under to buy his certificate of enlightenment? How many 'original lineage' doctrines did he memorize? How many debating tricks did he master?

Or is it the case that the more he sought out 'twue' experts as you mention doing, the more he realized that path was an ego driven dead end?

You seriously might want to take these little hints I've kept dropping ( such as reading the Sutta above), and realize that what Buddha taught is not going to be found under your labels, any more than citing Scripture to be an authority is going to make you Jesus.

So back to Katrina and the OP...

Calling for sympathy for those who used the Katrina NOLA near miss as an excuse to run various scams, while detracting from those who were actually directly hit and devastated, is not the Buddha-like compassion you might imagine it to be...
it is in fact helping to perpetuate the 'Big Easy' way of doing things, and detracts from the real victims.

I reject the notion that there is anything remotely enlightened about that sort of 'compassion'.

Being unhappy that someone is shining the harsh and unpleasant light of facts on flimsy stories is not compassion either.

Being an iconoclast, (while it may piss off those who find comfort in icons, no matter how much harm they enable and conceal), is shining that harsh light...otherwise know as illumination...which my ancestors could have referred to as Alumbrado.

And that concept has an interesting intertwinement with the fact that some seekers of esoteric knowledge had been going to China since the 1200s, and after that time, some small groups were adopting meditative and philosophical practices very similar to the Chinese ones I referred you to earlier in the thread.
Groups that set as their goal, not doctrinal adherence, but 'free thought' as a path to enlightenment.
Free thought that brings that same harsh illumination to bear on flimsy stories and mindless acceptance.
Free thought like that advocated by Buddha in the Sutta you seem to have missed.

Needless to say, those who loved their icons were very unhappy with that notion, which ultimately led to my ancestors arriving in America in the early 1600s.

So the personal connection between my choice of words and topics as an iconoclast, my admitted delight at making icon bearers uncomforable, my choice of nick as a term for iconoclastic free thinkers (some of whom may have been daring enough to learn about functioning Buddhism before Hollywood came along to 'splain it to them), and my enjoyment of the fact that CM had a Buddha icon in the style of his being an iconoclastic freethinker, was easy for me to make.

The thread connection between refusing to allow a mistaken notion of compassion to cause one to fall for patently untrue stories, and being a free thinker instead of a 'twue' anything should have been painfully obvious.

Sorry you didn't get it.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/8/2008 6:01:13 PM >

(in reply to cjan)

Profile

Post #: 82

RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/8/2008 7:13:46 PM

cjan

Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline

Oh, I do get it, Alumbrado. In fact I agree with the essence of what you are saying regarding the burden of reliance on teachings, of whatever sect, teachers or Masters and dogmas of any and all kinds.At the end of the journey, one must let go of everything. But, as the Buddha said, a raft is sometimes useful in order to reach the other shore.But, in the end, one must abandon the raft.

The theachers and teahings I have referred to have, imo, value to many in the beginning of their journeys. I think, for myself, teachers who's teachings are dogma and form free, such as Kishnamurti and Toni Packer have much to offer.

We clearly disagree on Katrina's effect on it's victims. I don't differentiate between NoLa's victims and others on the Gulf coast. As I said, it's takes much more money and effort and government involvment to rebuild a metropolis with it's infrastructure and necessary services than smaller communities. I have no lack of compassion for any of Katrina's victims.

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Profile

Post #: 83

RE: "The City That Care Forgot" - 6/9/2008 1:47:19 PM

Aynne

Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline

deleted for stupidity! lol...

< Message edited by Aynne -- 6/9/2008 2:29:29 PM >

_____________________________

*Yes I know I have no profile at this time...

I looked in your eyes
Without saying a word
I told you what I am
And I hoped that you heard

~Owned and Loved by Master Sifu~

*founder of I Love Lushy Inc.*

(in reply to cjan)

Profile

Post #: 84