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poor big brown - 6/7/2008 3:35:02 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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wasnt even in the running...at belmont...

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RE: poor big brown - 6/7/2008 3:48:35 PM

cyberdude611

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It's been what? 31 years since the last Triple Crown?

Millions of dollars was bet on Big Brown to win this....lot of people lost money today.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/7/2008 3:55:17 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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they said 5.4 million was bet on belmont just at the track. probably more like 20 mil world wide. he was like 7 lengths behind. 2nd place was like 5 behind.

and a 38-1 horse won....damn ..shame i dont bet on horses...

now they're gonna say he should have taken his regular steroid treatment...he didnt take any this race.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/7/2008 4:03:02 PM

DomKen

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So what, he gets to retire to a stud farm to loaf and screw the rest of his life. I should be so lucky.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/7/2008 4:24:56 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So what, he gets to retire to a stud farm to loaf and screw the rest of his life. I should be so lucky.

We should all be so lucky....in hindsight maybe they shouldn't have run the horse at all given the hoof problems it had last week

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RE: poor big brown - 6/7/2008 5:59:26 PM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

wasnt even in the running...at belmont...

That was such a difficult race to watch...2 minutes 27 seconds....he got a bad slot...the rail. Someone has to get it...and he struggled to get out of the rail. He was pushed back, but...like others, he had options. So did the jockey, and he simply gave up at 4 furlongs. The jockey didn't give everything either.

Interestingly enough, the horse in position 6 won....Big Brown won the Preakness in Maryland 5 weeks ago from position 6.

Big Brown needs an open field to run. I hope he runs again.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/7/2008 8:08:26 PM

xxblushesxx

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I enjoyed watching the horse who won being led to the paddock. He was nuzzling the horse with him...very cute!

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 5:35:11 AM

peterK50

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Lol nuzzling? He was trying to bite the pony! Big Brown was pretty rank all morning, showed him bucking & kicking in the security barn. He's a Boundry, there's a reason no one breeds to him & we just saw it.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 6:17:24 AM

windchymes

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I'm just glad his legs are all intact.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 6:22:43 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50
He's a Boundry, there's a reason no one breeds to him & we just saw it.

No one should be breeding thoroughbreds period. The entire breed is exceptionally heavily inbred and much of the issues of behavior and injury the breed suffers from is the result of close breeding accentuating undesirable characters.

Realistically the breed would benefit if crosses with Arabians and other breeds were allowed to race as thoroughbreds.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 6:32:38 AM

cuffncollar

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It looked like Big Brown was ready to make his run while the jockey was still holding him back until he could get him to the outside to make his run. By then it seemed as though Big Brown said screw it. I applaud the jockey for not pushing him and risking injury to the horse to achieve a place, or show win. Just my 2 cents.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 7:53:10 AM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No one should be breeding thoroughbreds period. The entire breed is exceptionally heavily inbred and much of the issues of behavior and injury the breed suffers from is the result of close breeding accentuating undesirable characters.

Realistically the breed would benefit if crosses with Arabians and other breeds were allowed to race as thoroughbreds.

I'll firmly agree with you on most of the statement. They need new blood in there to strengthen the breed. I don't recommend Arabians because I just have had to many horrible members of that breed around me. They were all beautiful animals but major pains in the arse. Even a little quarter horse blood in them would be better than what they have going now.
Another thing that would help the horses would be to quit pushing them so hard so young. Most horse owners I know don't even start training their horses to ride until they're 2 and these bastards are racing them at that age. The horses still have bone growth issues at that age that can cause some serious problems. I normally work with larger breeds and its recommended that you don't do any heavy work with them until they are at least 4.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 8:34:32 AM

peterK50

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There are some crosses but they aren't successful. Most stallions stand for around 10 years, if they cover 100 mares a year that's 1,000 foals, maybe half are colts who race & out of that 500 maybe 5 stand at stud themselves. Hardly a large enough number to pass on undesireable traits. The trouble is most brood mares are those that broke down at the track & can no longer run. That is the trait most readily passed on.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 8:49:39 AM

Irishknight

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Peter, you are leaving out the frozen and chilled horse juice shipments these days. A stud can cover a lot more territory these days. Inbreeding in this breed is a definate problem. They have addressed it several times but it continues because everyone wants to breed to the same horse at the same time. It is a valid problem and one that needs stricter controls.

The broken down mare problem that you mention is a big problem of the inbreeding situation too. It is a very good point. They take an inbred horse with a known defect and breed it to another horse with similar inbreeding and they make the defect worse.

Your point on the crossbreeds is reasonable. As soon as one wins, you'd better believe that there will be a sudden influx of crossbreeds. That might be what it takes to save the sport.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 9:33:07 AM

Politesub53

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English and American thoughbreds are originally bred from Arabians. These were crossed with native English mares. I think at the top end many problems are caused due to the small number of very influential sires. Part of the problem in the states is that staying races dont seem so popular, and most horses are more bred for speed. I dount think French racing has improved for droping the French Derby and Oaks from 12 to 10 furlongs.

Big Browns run was too bad to be true, so i am expecting them to find a reason for it. My guess would be the injury hadnt healed sufficiently.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 10:00:32 AM

DomKen

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A few points.

Unless things have changed very recently thoroughbred breedings must be what is call live cover, i.e. natural copulation, rather than artifical insemination.

It doesn't at this time matter how many animals are breeding. The entire thoroughbred breed is descended from about a dozen stallions and around 75 mares. The breed is easily injured and tempermental partially due to this inbreeding. There simply isn't any way to cull the undesirable characters as virtually all the animals in the breed have them.

Thoroughbred crosses are quite succesful and the breed has been outbred with other breeds to bring desired characters into other breeds. However the results of those crosses aren't considered thoroughbreds and are excluded from the General Stud Book so there is no source of new blood for thoroughbreds. This shortsightedness must change or the breed will probably collapse as the close breeding will eventually make every thoroughbred effectively a sibling of every other thoroughbred.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 10:21:20 AM

Politesub53

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Dom Ken, without wishing to be cantankerous, surely all thoroughbreds go back to the three Original Arabian stallions imported into the UK in the 1600s. These were, The Darley Arabian, The Godolphin Arabian and the Byerley Turk ( SP ? ) I think the Byerley Turk line has dwindled away, and 95 % of all thoroughbreds can be traced back to the Darley Arabian.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 12:12:23 PM

peterK50

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All thoroughbreeds are live cover, there is no artificial insemination. With the gestation period of a mare being 11 mos 15 days there is effectively one foal a year from that mare. So in 10 years she has 10 foals, & provides 50% of the genetic make-up, hardly a pollution of the breed with a genetic trait. The Cornell University Vet School did a study of breeding practices & found it in no way saturated by certain studs. There are always popular studs, Mr. Greeley was big, Strom Cat was big, now we're into A.P. Indy, Empire Maker,Fusaichi Pegasus, & Giants Causeway. Plenty of good studs in you have the cash. I believe Giants Causeway is standing for $170,000.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 12:16:17 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Dom Ken, without wishing to be cantankerous, surely all thoroughbreds go back to the three Original Arabian stallions imported into the UK in the 1600s. These were, The Darley Arabian, The Godolphin Arabian and the Byerley Turk ( SP ? ) I think the Byerley Turk line has dwindled away, and 95 % of all thoroughbreds can be traced back to the Darley Arabian.

My understanding backed up some online research is that while all thoroughbreds are descended from thos three stallions there were other stallions involved in the early breeding that led to thoroughbreds. Look into Brownlow Turk and Curwen's Bay Barb for some details.

It is reported that 95% of all thoroughbred stallions share a Y chromosme that traces back to the Darley Arabian but in such a closely bred population that is not surprising and is not indicative that the other stallions genes have been bred out of the breed.

http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/FoundationSires.html

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 12:26:24 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

All thoroughbreeds are live cover, there is no artificial insemination. With the gestation period of a mare being 11 mos 15 days there is effectively one foal a year from that mare. So in 10 years she has 10 foals, & provides 50% of the genetic make-up, hardly a pollution of the breed with a genetic trait. The Cornell University Vet School did a study of breeding practices & found it in no way saturated by certain studs. There are always popular studs, Mr. Greeley was big, Strom Cat was big, now we're into A.P. Indy, Empire Maker,Fusaichi Pegasus, & Giants Causeway. Plenty of good studs in you have the cash. I believe Giants Causeway is standing for $170,000.

You're misunderstanding. Number of individuals today doesn't matter. What matters is the number of alleles and their distribution in the breeds gene pool. With so few founders, around 100 tops, there was a very limited amount of variation in the breed when it was founded and after 250 odd years of breeding for specific characters the modern thoroughbred comes from a very homogenous gene pool. Effectively every stallion and mare are at most second cousins genetically and the longer the gene pool remains closed and the top studs do most of the breeding the situation will only grow worse.

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