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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 1:33:07 PM   
peterK50


Posts: 433
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Status: offline 		There isn't a problem. The trouble is many Sires had corrective surgery as foals & that is not told to buyers so when the foal has poor confirmation.... "surprise"!

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 1:47:52 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Go talk to race vets if you don't believe me. Heck just compare the temperment of the average thoroughbred to the average american quarter horse. Both are racing breeds but the quarter horse has not been so closely bred and so while you will occasionally get a hard to handle stallion it isn't all that common while thoroughbreds are notoriusly skittish and nearly impossible to control which are traits a good breeder would be working on getting rid of if possible which it clearly isn't in thoroughbreds. It may turn out that Big Brown's injury, likely resulting from a well known trait of thoroughbreds (small hooves) resulting from inbreeding, it's also quite possible based on his behaviour during the race that he got caught in the bunch on the rail and paniced just enough to make him ignore his rider down the stretch which is also widely considered to be a fault of the breed do to the inbreeding.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 3:00:51 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
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Status: offline 		Ken, you are absolutely right about the origin of the breed.  Less than one hundred horses and they continue to inbreed from the same lines.  They are breeding for problems not progress.
Horses are my lifeblood and how I make my money.  I won't have a useless horse on the place.  I will take a good quarter horse in a heartbeat.  I'll sweep up a good draft faster than you can say, "What was that fat blur?"  I'll even take a grade mare for training purposes but I will not take a TB if its free.  I find them more trouble than they are worth.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 3:16:17 PM   
peterK50


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Status: offline 		Temperment has much to do with the kind of handling the foals & yearlings receive, less then breeding. Colts & Stallions are commonly given Winstrol which is a steroid. That often makes the more agressive, along with strange surroundings at the track & large screaming crowds. Stallions are the leaders of the herd, they don't work & play well with other stallions, that contributes to their aggressive actions around other males. Send me all your free thoroughbreds IrishKnight.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 3:26:43 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

Temperment has much to do with the kind of handling the foals & yearlings receive, less then breeding. Colts & Stallions are commonly given Winstrol which is a steroid. That often makes the more agressive, along with strange surroundings at the track & large screaming crowds. Stallions are the leaders of the herd, they don't work & play well with other stallions, that contributes to their aggressive actions around other males. Send me all your free thoroughbreds IrishKnight.

Ever been to a harness race? I've been to harness tracks dozens of times and seen 2 instances where the jockeys' lost control of their horses, both due to actual collisions between horses. In comparison I only occasionally go to thoroughbred races, the Arlington million weekend these days and thats about it, and it is quite common to see the thoroughbreds out of control before and after the races as well as incidents during the races. The difference is in the breeds. Harness racing is done with the genetically healthy standardbred. The surroundings of the track are not strange for most working race horses, they live at the track and train at the track every day.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 3:39:15 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

Send me all your free thoroughbreds IrishKnight.

If you've got the big money it takes to pay their doctor bills and maintain them, more power to you.  They are more trouble tan they are worth.  Its like paying a half million for a ferrarri then finding out that it needs an expensive adjustment every week.  Unless you're hitting the winner's circle, they are worthless.  Give me a percheron or a clydesdale any day.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 3:44:31 PM   
peterK50


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Status: offline 		I have thorougbreds all over my farm. I don't need to go sit in the stands as a fan.. Arlington is different from Del Mar, is different from Keenelenad is different from Belmont. They are all strange locations for the horse & unsettle him. It's not his stall, it's differnt. The suggestion that all tracks are somehow familliar is ridiculous. Your position that the thoroughbred is somehow "genetically unhealthy" is without merit.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 3:53:09 PM   
peterK50


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Status: offline 		I have the big money IrishKnight, & it's not from Clydesdales & Percherons. Three Chimneys Farm bought 55% of Big Brown's breeding rights for over $50 million. They could have bought every Clydesdaale in America for that much.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 4:11:11 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
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Status: offline 		Check the price on the Budweiser Clydes again.  As for 50 million for breeding rights, more power to them.  There's a sucker born every minute.
They could, however, have bought every Percheron in the country for that much.  And they would have had healthier and better horses.  IMO
Which is where we are now.  We are getting to the opinion portion where "My breed is better than your breed."  More expensive is not better.  A 500,000 dollar wreck is not worth as much to me as an 800 dollar car that runs.  I'm done with this before it turns into more of a pissing contest.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 4:58:00 PM   
peterK50


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Status: offline 		It's not a matter of better or not. Throughbreds are more marketable & profitable. The dollars don't lie. They're bred to run, not pull a beer wagon. Guess more people want to go to the races then on hayrides.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 5:36:12 PM   
ThinkingKitten


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I will take a good quarter horse in a heartbeat. 

Sure, IF you can find one that actually has feet big enough to be seen... can you say n-a-v-i-c-u-l-a-r? Quarter horse breeding practices have been abominable too.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/8/2008 7:18:47 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThinkingKitten

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I will take a good quarter horse in a heartbeat. 

Sure, IF you can find one that actually has feet big enough to be seen... can you say n-a-v-i-c-u-l-a-r? Quarter horse breeding practices have been abominable too.

Hence me stating a good quarter horse.   You are absolutely correct about the breeding practices.  The "show quality" quarter horses tend to have bad legs and small feet.  They look like watermelons with a head and tail on toothpicks.

Fortunately, there are many people dealing with the problems in the quarter horse breed rather than denying that there is one.

I put my life on the line on my horses so I have to be able to rely on them.  I am extremely picky.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/9/2008 3:56:33 AM   
peterK50


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Status: offline 		The thoroughbred industry is just that, an industry. There are tens of millions of dollars spent on research & treatments of racehorses. Given the large numbers of horses in racing & the relatively tiny fraction of deaths on the track it's safer then recreational skiing statisticly. Racehorses are bred to run fast, not pull beer wagons, herd cattle, or play make- believe at ren faires. Given the stagering amounts of money involved in racing no stone is being left unturned to improve horses, tracks, and equipment.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/9/2008 6:00:32 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
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Status: offline 		Sorry, but riding at another human being with a ten foot lance pointed at you is not "play make."  We actually joust and without a good horse, good armor, and proper training, people can die.  We aren't choreographing this stuff and playing by a script.  Jousting as a sport is beginning to draw more people every year and is second only to horse racing in longevity as an equine sport. 
Our horses also go for big profits.  One of my friends paid 500 for a horse valued now at over 40,000.  Thats quite a profit margin on a perch/quarter gelding.  Think of the profit he could make with that horse if he were able to breed it.

The beer wagon pullers are also drawing more and more yearly at the equine equivalent of tractor pulls.  Winning teams bring offers of big money that would do TBs proud. 

Last year, a barrel racing horse that finished second brought 117,000 dollars. 

Horses are an industry, not just TBs.  Just as corruptiuon and bad practices have been found in other industrues, so to are they found in ours.  It is the duty of anyone who loves the animals to point them out rather than deny them.  How many TBs have to be put down during training because they started to young?  More than should.  For every one that makes it to the track, how many lose it during training?  There are real issues to be addressed just like with every industry.  The first would be for some of these breeders to realize that those are actual living, feeling creatures out there.  A lot are not treated that way. 

Out of curiosity for an earlier statement you made, I have a question.  How long does a horse have to start getting his/her bearings at a track?  Do they arrive a day before the race?  Two or three? Is it just a few hours?  I've never gone any earlier than the morning of the races.  I would have loved to have just taken off for a season with my grandfather who worked as a groom. 

< Message edited by Irishknight -- 6/9/2008 6:01:00 AM >

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RE: poor big brown - 6/9/2008 7:17:22 AM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50
He's a Boundry, there's a reason no one breeds to him & we just saw it.

No one should be breeding thoroughbreds period. The entire breed is exceptionally heavily inbred and much of the issues of behavior and injury the breed suffers from is the result of close breeding accentuating undesirable characters.

Realistically the breed would benefit if crosses with Arabians and other breeds were allowed to race as thoroughbreds.


Being part of the Equestrian community.. and having owned horses.. shown, and having friends in the racing industry...

The current breeding issues are simple.
We have seen it time and time again.. Eight Belles is just one example. Unfortunatly with the breeding standards now being what they are chosing the faster Native Dancer lines over the more solid Man O' War lines ( All 12 horses in The Kentucky Derby race were of Native Dancers weak spindly legs) we have been.. and will be seeing more tragedies like Eight Belles. American TB ( Thoroughbred) breeding has been heading tword more and more of the speed and less and less of the conformation. ( Conformation meaning health, and bone and muscle structure which builds strong, steady horses ) We have seen a lot of horses on tracks now at 2 years old. In Man O' War's day they would still be in training. They have to get them on the track because they have to retire by 3- 3 1/2 because of thier awful legs and health. This is just sad.

The breeders have gone for speed, and faster races... not a better horse. This is why we are seeing such crappy horses.

Big Brown has the same spindly legs, and hoof issues.

Any one who has a horse.. or tended one knows hoof issues are serious biz. It is like trying to win the Daytona 400 with 4 flat tires.  ~ it wont work.

Imagine having a huge cut deep into your foot, made to carry some jack ass piggy backed, and made to run as fast as you can, over and over again in practices.. and then in a race.

The stupidity of greedy humans never ceses to amaze me.

Gwyn

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RE: poor big brown - 6/9/2008 7:26:52 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		Good Morning Peter! How is this year's crop of babies coming along? (I still say the little bay filly is the best! )

Just an FYI to DK and IK......Peter really does know what he is talking about on this subject. It is his business to know.


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RE: poor big brown - 6/9/2008 7:42:48 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Just an FYI to DK and IK......Peter really does know what he is talking about on this subject. It is his business to know.

He may know the up close and personal stuff about horse breeding but he clearly doesn't know anything about population genetics.

As an example look at Eight Belles lineage. Native Dancer was 2 of her great great grandfathers and one of her great grandfathers.

Big Brown and Eight Belles were related through at least Northern Dancer. Big Brown is Northern Dancers great grandson from both the sire and dam sides.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/9/2008 7:54:35 AM >

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RE: poor big brown - 6/9/2008 9:36:53 AM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Good Morning Peter! How is this year's crop of babies coming along? (I still say the little bay filly is the best! )

Just an FYI to DK and IK......Peter really does know what he is talking about on this subject. It is his business to know.


Then surely his horses will be better than what is out there now.  I hope so.  There are still too many others not doing the things they're supposed to in the business.  For every one good breeder there are probably five dishonest ones.  Every horse trader will do everything he can to tell you his are the best.  Most are lying.  I am not knocking Peter but the industry on the whole does have problems.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/9/2008 1:44:52 PM   
peterK50


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Status: offline 		Nice to see you La Tigresse Ma'am.

Conformation, Gwynvryd, is more how straight & correct a horse is then bone density or muscling. If he is slightly forward at the shoulder [built downhill] with a large hip that is desireable. Straight in the knee & ankle with no turn in or out of the hooves. Man o' War was raced as a two-year-old & as a three-year-old won the Preakness & Belmont Stakes. He did not run in the Kentucky Derby as his owner did not like racing in Kentucky. Horses in his day were larger & heavier & their times reflect that. The tracks were also not as deep as they are today to allow them maximum speed. Tracks today, both dirt & polytrack, are much deeper for safety.

Tracks make space available seven days before the start of any meet. Trainers like to get to the track a week before a race. Trailering or flying a horse in can in itself cause injury. Getting accustomed to his new surroundings, stablemates, & getting workouts in on the new surface takes time. Large operations such as Todd Pletchers or Nick Zito's have permanant barns at the major tracks.

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RE: poor big brown - 6/9/2008 2:33:44 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50
Tracks make space available seven days before the start of any meet. Trainers like to get to the track a week before a race. Trailering or flying a horse in can in itself cause injury. Getting accustomed to his new surroundings, stablemates, & getting workouts in on the new surface takes time. Large operations such as Todd Pletchers or Nick Zito's have permanant barns at the major tracks.


Thanks.  Your earlier post made me curious about that.  that is the same amount of time I allow before my competitions.  At least we agree on that much. 

I think anyone who has been in the horse business for any length of time has seen trailering/transportation injuries.  I nearly had one myself here recently when I was transporting a new horse.  Scared the hell out of me.

On a side note, we just got confirmation that we got a twofer.  We bought a little mare to use to train my son to ride and she's just about to pop.  I even remember asking if she'd been bred and being told no.  I can't wait to see how this surprise works out.  She's actually the one mare we have that we didn't plan to breed.

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