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Door mats - 6/8/2008 12:50:37 AM

angelstrands

Posts: 9
Joined: 4/15/2008
Status: offline

What sort of behaviour, in Your opinion seperates 'Doormat' from 'Submissive' ? What type of things in Your mind would signal to You that Your sub or slave is basically being a complete doormat rather than a good submissive? How does that affect Your opinion of that person?

Can anyone give a sub advice on 'red flags' that may indicate that he/she is being too much of a doormat and also on Dominants/Masters that might enjoy treating  subs in this way?. are there any clue that may emerge that one should not ignore?

Does anyone like a complete doormat and why?

Do You ever do anything on purpose to test if Your sub is being too much of a doormat? if yes, do You as a Dominant take advantage of it or approach Your sub to offer some sort of correction (dont know if anyone will be honest enough with me here to admit that they use it to their advantage? !)

really interested in hearing what You have to say

Thank You

Post #: 1

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 2:10:58 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelstrands

What sort of behaviour, in Your opinion seperates 'Doormat' from 'Submissive' ? What type of things in Your mind would signal to You that Your sub or slave is basically being a complete doormat rather than a good submissive? How does that affect Your opinion of that person?

Hi and welcome to the Forums....

We had an interesting thread on 'doormats' not so long back. My own definition of a doormat (and I stress *MY*) was of a sub who simply goes along with everything I say or do without question or hesitation. Which sounds fine in the theory of Dominant & submissive dynamics but doesn't work for me in real world situations. For eg, to ask the girl's opinion on what colour to paint a room and get a virtually autonomic response of "whatever you think/want" etc is NOT what I'm asking. Any fem/sub I'd own is also an intelligent, mature adult who can give *her* opinion when asked.

On a more D/s aspect of the relationship, the very reason I prefer a sub who has a suitable level of mischief, playfulness, sass, spirit, attitude etc is because I enjoy reining it in when she goes too far. How exactly does one discipline a doormat if she never puts a foot wrong or says a word out of place - do I just set her up to fail or we can both pretend, for eg? I don't think soooo...! Of course, I don't want an incorrigible brat, either, which fits with my being a 'moderate' in most things.

quote:

Can anyone give a sub advice on 'red flags' that may indicate that he/she is being too much of a doormat and also on Dominants/Masters that might enjoy treating subs in this way?. are there any clue that may emerge that one should not ignore?

I don't think there's any such thing as "red flag" regarding a submissive who might be perceived as a doormat. The key word in all relationships is "compatability" and while my definition of a doormat is undesirable to me, she may well be another Dom's dream come true....

quote:

Does anyone like a complete doormat and why?

Of course they do, or there wouldn't be any such thing! It's a bit like that ole stereotypal thinking that all men desire women with large breasts - so many of the "sweet young things" are out getting boob jobs! I'll take petite 'A' cup to Dolly Parton wannabe's anyday of the week - which helps explain why nature gives humans more variety than any other creature combined. I personally don't desire submissive doormats anymore than the double D cups. Good news; one *can* choose....

quote:

Do You ever do anything on purpose to test if Your sub is being too much of a doormat? if yes, do You as a Dominant take advantage of it or approach Your sub to offer some sort of correction (dont know if anyone will be honest enough with me here to admit that they use it to their advantage? !)

I don't test because it's NOT a fault per se'. It takes me all of a few minutes to discern if a potential partner has a mind of her own. I have found many subs to be hung up on the fear of failure - that I sort out early on with a few tests she can't possibly achieve. Reason is simple - I define failure as her not trying her best; it has NOTHING to do with whether she crosses some token or imaginery "finish line".

quote:

really interested in hearing what You have to say

Well of course you are - tis Me afterall....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to angelstrands)

Post #: 2

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 8:05:09 AM

antipode

Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

There is no separation, one can be either or both. Door mat, trodden on, I suppose the concept is self-explanatory, sub category of sub. I suppose. I don't know why you would be looking for shades of gray, there isn't a rulebook, only people and their personal conceptualization.

(in reply to angelstrands)

Post #: 3

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 9:17:54 AM

kinkypuppy2

Posts: 345
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline

A Doormat has nothing in the eyes when you look at them. They rarely smile and do not comment, complain or object to anything at all. They are unfortunately a broken person due to events in their life or they have just had it all beaten out of them. They not only do not care if you walk all over them, they in many cases do not even realise it. A doormat shows no initiative. They don't seem to "want" to do anything -- they just follow commands. A submissive will look for ways to please you; a doormat is only 'active' when you tell them to do something. A submissive wants to have a relationship with you; a doormat doesn't know or care if such a thing as "relationship" exists -- they just want YOU to do all their thinking for them.

_____________________________

See nic "Kinkypupper" also as "slvseeker" As I cannot reply to any posts or log into collarchat under that name I had to create this profile.

(in reply to angelstrands)

Post #: 4

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 9:27:45 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

FR

i think a sub is a doormat when there is no regard or respect for her service from the dominant. He takes from his submissive without even a smidgen of thought as to whether it is something she is comfortable with, enjoys, needs etc. IMO doormat means a one way relationship, there are no negotiations or discussions about what the submissives needs are in the relationship, she probably doesn't feel she has any, only to make happy and serve her Master in anyway he chooses. It's a very subjective thing. i am sure some doms feel quite comfortable treating submissives this way and some submissives feel a need to be treated this way, and actually thrive in that kind of a relationship. Not my cup of tea but if it works for you, wonderful... enjoy

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 5

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 11:14:16 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelstrands
What sort of behaviour, in Your opinion seperates 'Doormat' from 'Submissive' ?

Nothing, there are many fulfilled wonderful doormats who are also submissives and slaves.

quote:

What type of things in Your mind would signal to You that Your sub or slave is basically being a complete doormat rather than a good submissive? How does that affect Your opinion of that person?

I do not ascribe to the fluffy talk that you cannot be a doormat AND a good submissive.

quote:

Can anyone give a sub advice on 'red flags' that may indicate that he/she is being too much of a doormat and also on Dominants/Masters that might enjoy treating subs in this way?. are there any clue that may emerge that one should not ignore?

Why do you believe being a doormat is something to worry and "red flag" at all?

quote:

Does anyone like a complete doormat and why?

I have been a doormat, heck I still am to my partner and nephews in many ways. I have friends who all proudly claim doormat status.

quote:

Do You ever do anything on purpose to test if Your sub is being too much of a doormat? if yes, do You as a Dominant take advantage of it or approach Your sub to offer some sort of correction (dont know if anyone will be honest enough with me here to admit that they use it to their advantage? !)

The people who are most against being "doormats" are often the ones most afraid of it. There are many who embrace the concept and proudly go to that place in themselves.

Rather than worrying about a label, ask yourself what fulfills you in the long term- what is positive and productive for your life?

Many people when they get into something unknown find they are frightened by what honestly works best for them- does that mean they should deny it?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_916105/mpage_1/key_doormat/tm.htm#916126
Doormats

http://www.collarchat.com/m_759342/mpage_4/key_doormat/tm.htm#761465
Doormats- can we eliminate them?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_719413/mpage_1/key_doormat/tm.htm#719427
How do you draw the line between submissive and doormat?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_202748/mpage_1/key_doormat/tm.htm#202751
Doormat sub/slaves..what are their identifiers

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1212646/mpage_1/key_doormat/tm.htm#1212725
Doormats in Ds and bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1495361/mpage_1/key_doormat/tm.htm#1495412
Definition of a doormat

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1872678/mpage_1/key_doormat/tm.htm#1872786
Doms not wanting doormats

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1884328/mpage_1/key_doormat/tm.htm#1884469
Complete obedience = doormat?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to angelstrands)

Post #: 6

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 12:44:23 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

Awesome reply, LA. I've made many a post on doormats. People can do a search about it if interested. There is a level of anger that people have when speaking of doormats that makes no sense to me, other than they loathe it out of some internal fear over the word. It's certainly an interesting display, in my opinion.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 7

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 1:00:07 PM

fairerthanshe

Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline

Greetings OP<

I'll stick with my standard reply in these situations: What LA said...

It's because I'm a doormat in our relationship that I follow all of LA's posts with "What LA said..." It has nothing to do with her being intelligent and well spoken, so please don't read that kind of value into it. It is simply that I have no other option as a doormat then to repeat exactly what I am supposed to repeat regardless of the discussion...

Now that we have that out of the way...I don't consider myself a doormat. A doormat is more welcoming than I have been able to achieve, you see, it bears no prejudice against those that might use it. I have yet to rid myself of societal constructs to the point where I can do this. Am I SJ's doormat? I hope so. Am I a doormat to all he welcomes into his home? I try really hard to be, and yet I know there are times when I am not. Is being a doormat something to which I aspire? Absolutely...

When I have reached the state where my own needs, wants and desires are far removed from the frame within which I live my life, then perhaps I will be a doormat.

well wishes ~ fairer than she

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 8

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 1:07:49 PM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

I'm with LA on this one. I'm a doormat for R...it works for him and for me...I'm peaceful, he intends to keep me today, its all good.

Figure out works for -you- and go with it.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 9

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 1:41:00 PM

Huntertn

Posts: 715
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline

Door mats have their place in this lifestyle..but not in mine. When I ask a sub a question, I want a a aswer that applies to that the subject was. Red flags are what you make of them..not any one thing or ideal.....

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 10

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 3:15:20 PM

InsaenPleasures

Posts: 49
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline

I generally agree with those who do not see being a doormat as an issue. I think people generally confuse doormat with abusive or codependant or generally unhealthy relationships, which while the differences may be subtle they are not the same things.

As for red flags, I think in general they can be misleading. Lists of variables of human behavior are not 100% accurate and are often misleading.

Logan

(in reply to Huntertn)

Post #: 11

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 6:31:04 PM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

quote:

There is a level of anger that people have when speaking of doormats that makes no sense to me, other than they loathe it out of some internal fear over the word. It's certainly an interesting display, in my opinion.

Yup.

I'm happiest when I feel safe enough that I don't have to question everything and don't feel the need to individuate myself. Its lovely when it happens even for a short time.

To Focus: If you clearly instruct a doormat to come up with a paint color (or a variety for you to choose from), she probably would in no time at all. I had a guy leave me alone with his kitchen a couple weeks ago. He didn't know what he wanted done with it, but just said if he didn't like it, he could change it back. I had a blast and he seemed really happy with the results. I charged him that first time because I didn't really know him and didn't want him thinking I was a total doormat at that point, but when it came time to do his living room, I had decided he was a good guy, so I let down my defenses, and did it up for free. For a couple hours, I was in my element and the world was good.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 12

RE: Door mats - 6/8/2008 8:17:41 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Huntertn
Door mats have their place in this lifestyle..but not in mine. When I ask a sub a question, I want a a aswer that applies to that the subject was. Red flags are what you make of them..not any one thing or ideal.....

Why do you believe a doormat cannot give such an answer? It would be a bad doormat to deny that welcome engagement.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Huntertn)

Post #: 13

RE: Door mats - 6/9/2008 12:26:48 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

To Focus: If you clearly instruct a doormat to come up with a paint color (or a variety for you to choose from), she probably would in no time at all. I had a guy leave me alone with his kitchen a couple weeks ago. He didn't know what he wanted done with it, but just said if he didn't like it, he could change it back. I had a blast and he seemed really happy with the results. I charged him that first time because I didn't really know him and didn't want him thinking I was a total doormat at that point, but when it came time to do his living room, I had decided he was a good guy, so I let down my defenses, and did it up for free. For a couple hours, I was in my element and the world was good.

No, you've misunderstood.... lol

First, it was just a hypothetical example for this topic anyway. But to expand on that; when a room needs painting, the work involved doesn't vary with the chosen colour. And being a typical guy, I'm not that fussed on one decor over another but women are generally more into such things - the mysterious world of matching colours etc.

There are many things with which I'm not fussed one way or another, so I like to lean over and ask the girl what she reckons. I'll do the work painting - not a biggy. But if and when I want another's opinion on such things, that's what I WANT - some *female perspective* because they usually have thoughts/ideas on such things.

IE, I didn't task her to come up with a colour, I asked her what *she* thought. And I really don't wanna hear "whatever you (me) think" - that ain't an opinion. I regard owning my girl as owning all she is and having a right to it. Somewhere inside is the *independent* opinion of a mature female adult - there are plenty of times I want that, too!

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 14

RE: Door mats - 6/9/2008 12:47:31 AM

CurvyCleanFreak

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/25/2007
Status: offline

My definition of a doormat is someone who does not assert their health (mental and phsyical) and safety and acts more impulsively to fill a void, not build a concious emotional relationship. Subs need to assert themselves until they have earned and gained the trust that enables a healthy relationship to exist. A doormat trust too early or ignores the need for trust and often feels taken advantage of, by Doms that dont' realize that the sub is objectifying and not treating themselves with respect.
No real Dom should desire someone who doesn't respect themself. Modesty-some, shame- sure, humility-certainly, prioritizing his/her Dom over hi/sherself- perhaps, depending on the mutually desired situation, but never communicating his/her needs, concerns, desires- certainly not!
Everyone has their own opinions on what the ideal Dom or sub is but I will never agree or accept that a person letting themself be used without being sure whether or not the Dom cares for his/her well-being can be in a healthy relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 15

RE: Door mats - 6/9/2008 5:03:45 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

A doormat is someone who does things knowing this thing is bad for them and will leave them damaged; mentally, emotionally or physically. Someone who comes out of the experience worse than they started, and knows this will happen yet allows it to happen anyway.

As far as testing goes? Personally I find it all childish and anyone who would set someone they claimed to care for up to test to see if he/she is submissive enough or isn't submissive enough or is too submissive is someone not worthy of my respect. Do you 'test' your mother to see if she's sufficiently maternal towards you? Do you tell her that her not making your favorite dinner means she's a bad mother? Same thing when in a relationship.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to CurvyCleanFreak)

Post #: 16

RE: Door mats - 6/9/2008 7:32:56 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

LA,

quote:

I have been a doormat, heck I still am to my partner and nephews in many ways. I have friends who all proudly claim doormat status.

Oh bullshit LA, you are anything but a doormat. There is a vast difference between having no self esteem and thus not believing you have a choice and someone like you who CHOOSES to be compliant. To me a doormat is similar to someone who is stuck in an abusive relationship, they don't believe they deserve better.

DesFIP,

I would normally agree with you about testing but what Focus is talking about is setting someone up to fail to prove they are worthless but to show them that as long as they try they are doing well is quite different and I could see how that could be empowering as long as they were also allowed to succeed.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 17

RE: Door mats - 6/9/2008 7:38:54 AM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

Hi angel,
The question isn't really how can you tell a doormat. The question you should be asking is do YOU want to be a doormat. It is not just about what the Master wants. A healthy M/s relationship works because it is what the Master and the slave both want. Even if what they want is for the slave to be that doormat.

If you do not want to be a doormat, the basic question to ask yourself is "are you're needs being fulfilled as well as the Master's?"

There is a wonderful phrase in this lifestyle: "Equal in worth, just not equal in power". If you are equal in worth, then your Master will see to your needs. On the Master's timetable, not necessarily when you desire it. But your needs are never completely ignored.

Hope that helps.

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to angelstrands)

Post #: 18

RE: Door mats - 6/9/2008 8:12:03 AM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

quote:

No, you've misunderstood.... lol

Yup. My bad.

quote:

IE, I didn't task her to come up with a colour, I asked her what *she* thought. And I really don't wanna hear "whatever you (me) think" - that ain't an opinion. I regard owning my girl as owning all she is and having a right to it. Somewhere inside is the *independent* opinion of a mature female adult - there are plenty of times I want that, too!

Even so, a true doormat would have an independant thought if s/he was told to have an independant thought. I did that with my ex-husband for years. Besides, if you told a sub to give her opinion, and she turned it back on you, it would be disobedience not doormatence.

quote:

But to expand on that; when a room needs painting, the work involved doesn't vary with the chosen colour.

Sure the work varies with the chosen color. If you put a light color over a dark color you're going to end up having to paint a whole lot more coats than if you had put another dark color over the original dark color. Same goes if you try to put a light color over a dark color. (I used to paint with my dad and my former Master was a house painter and I followed him around alot.)

And, yeah, I know its a hypothetical example. I was just being ernest. lol

A thought: if a doormat s-type didn't have an opinion on something that their d-type couldn't be arsed to have an opinion about, then it would seem that the d-type was just as much without independant thought as the s-type. Wouldn't that make the d-type just as much of a doormat?

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 19

RE: Door mats - 6/9/2008 1:52:18 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

DesFIP,

I would normally agree with you about testing but what Focus is talking about is setting someone up to fail to prove they are worthless but to show them that as long as they try they are doing well is quite different and I could see how that could be empowering as long as they were also allowed to succeed.

I normally agree with Focus but personally his testing for trying wouldn't work for me. I'm one of those people who won't try if I don't think it's doable. I do a lot better if it's just explained to me what he's aiming at. I don't do well with testing and tend to look at those who do this with a jaundiced eye. Now if it's a play thing and they both agree to it, great. But I don't like having stuff sprung on me without explanation. I balk and withdraw trust in such situations which is why I said I find this childish, because it is to me.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 20

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