RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/3/2005 4:33:42 PM)

well while we are quoting........and i am far too lazy to look up the correct attribution, but whoever it is is dead as Julius Caesar so I will walk over his amendment rights too..........

(but I think it was Johnson)

When a man knows he's to be hanged in a fortnight it concentrates his mind wonderfully..........

Don't not see it coming and try to at least wear soles that aren't slippery.




DomButNotForgotn -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 12:54:02 AM)

pinkpleasures - I have been railing about the right wing crackdown to my local yahoo group in Boston, called BoundForPleasure - I think a PAC is a great idea.

I also think we need to have reasonable people represent us, and I further think that we need more people acting as thread police, safety police, or whatever you want to call it, when somebody starts talking about using frozen dildoes for insertion, doing serious torture, or whatever.

I was on a site that had one idiot espousing edge play, specifically inserting a knife into a subs vagina... and when I totally denounced it, some retard ragged me on it. We don't need vanilla folks seeing some of those kinds of posts in forums, believe me! There are too many fantasy Doms out there that seem to think the MOST extreme activities are peachy-keen okay because nobody calls them to task on really sick stuff...




stef -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 6:58:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomButNotForgotn

I was on a site that had one idiot espousing edge play, specifically inserting a knife into a subs vagina... and when I totally denounced it, some retard ragged me on it. We don't need vanilla folks seeing some of those kinds of posts in forums, believe me! There are too many fantasy Doms out there that seem to think the MOST extreme activities are peachy-keen okay because nobody calls them to task on really sick stuff...

Do you realize you're exhibiting the exact same behavior as those dreaded "vanillas?" To a significant portion of the population, everything "we" do is really sick stuff. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by calling people who play in a "DomButNotForgotn Approved(tm)" manner retarded or sick, but just because someone chooses to play at a level that exceeds slap and tickle, it hardly warrants such characterization.

~stef




candystripper -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 7:40:54 AM)

We have a whole Forum Section dedicated to "Health and Safety", stef. i take that to mean some things are just unsafe. The examples given by DomButNotForgotten -- the frozen dildo and the knife in the vagina -- do seem to me to be activities which would definately -- or maybe almost definately -- cause serious harm. There is also no arguing with the notion that some people enter chat roooms and say goofy things; that's why most such rooms are monitored by a Op.

In speaking with someone i respect very highly, i was urged to work with NCSF (National Coalition for Sexual Freedom) rather than trying to begin a new group, so that is what i am probably going to do. i haven't looked into the group yet, but i do remember lonewolf05 stating a membership fee was imposed; that might prove to be a barrier to me.

Much more thought needs to be given this topic (of opposing Bush's anti-BDSM campaign) but action cannot await a perfect solution for everyone.

candystripper




Soulhuntre -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 7:57:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomButNotForgotn
I was on a site that had one idiot espousing edge play, specifically inserting a knife into a subs vagina... and when I totally denounced it, some retard ragged me on it. We don't need vanilla folks seeing some of those kinds of posts in forums, believe me! There are too many fantasy Doms out there that seem to think the MOST extreme activities are peachy-keen okay because nobody calls them to task on really sick stuff...


So the plan is now what... self censor, eat our own young and start settng up official groups to tell the rest of us what we can talk about?

How, might I ask, is that a useful way to fight censorship?




candystripper -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 8:10:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomButNotForgotn
I was on a site that had one idiot espousing edge play, specifically inserting a knife into a subs vagina... and when I totally denounced it, some retard ragged me on it. We don't need vanilla folks seeing some of those kinds of posts in forums, believe me! There are too many fantasy Doms out there that seem to think the MOST extreme activities are peachy-keen okay because nobody calls them to task on really sick stuff...


quote:

So the plan is now what... self censor, eat our own young and start settng up official groups to tell the rest of us what we can talk about?

How, might I ask, is that a useful way to fight censorship?

Soulhuntre


No one -- including DomButNotForgotten -- has suggested we need any more supervision than we already get. The boards are supervised by Mods; the chat rooms have Ops. It sounds like the chat room DBNF was in was either unsupervised atm or the Op fell alseep at the switch; because He should not have been attacked for saying "that is unsafe".

Opening an account here entails agreeing to the TOS; posting here also requires agreement to each Forum's Guidelines. Mods step in and correct people who violate one or the other; issuing warnings; pulling posts; locking down threads, etc. Surely You're aware of this. So, in a sense, we do have an "official group" who censors us.

candystripper




JohnWarren -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 8:50:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomButNotForgotn
I was on a site that had one idiot espousing edge play, specifically inserting a knife into a subs vagina... and when I totally denounced it, some retard ragged me on it. We don't need vanilla folks seeing some of those kinds of posts in forums, believe me! There are too many fantasy Doms out there that seem to think the MOST extreme activities are peachy-keen okay because nobody calls them to task on really sick stuff...


So the plan is now what... self censor, eat our own young and start settng up official groups to tell the rest of us what we can talk about?

How, might I ask, is that a useful way to fight censorship?


I guess it is if you are a censor. In a few months I will be doing a demo in Oklahoma that will feature vaginal penetrations with a knife, a branding and needle dance. This particular class has taken place at groups around the country with no serious injuries. I'm not about to tone down things.




Soulhuntre -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 9:55:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
i do so in part because i have gay friends who are dear to me; in part because i fear it may signal a return to the bad old days, overturning such legislation as hate crime charge enhancements; and partially because a country in which gay people must live without the same rights as i is one headed down a path of repression which eventually will find its way to my door, my bedroom, my Church, my community.


"Hate crime" legislation is a perfect example of a "they came for the ____" type of situation that seems to be ignored when it's convenient. Hate crime laws create the concept of a "thought crime" and are the beginnign of the slope you fear.





stef -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 10:22:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

We have a whole Forum Section dedicated to "Health and Safety", stef. i take that to mean some things are just unsafe.

Define "unsafe."

quote:

The examples given by DomButNotForgotten -- the frozen dildo and the knife in the vagina -- do seem to me to be activities which would definately -- or maybe almost definately -- cause serious harm.

It's not much of a surprise to see how someone with ZERO real world experience might leap to such a conclusion, but you're wrong. I've been party to both activities dozens of times and none of the participants were injured in the least.

quote:

There is also no arguing with the notion that some people enter chat roooms and say goofy things; that's why most such rooms are monitored by a Op.

What do chat rooms have to do with any of this?

~stef




darkinshadows -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 11:29:29 AM)

I agree with stef here. What is unsafe? There are so many self defined' unsafe' activities the list would be endless. Edgeplay with knife insertion is an unsafe activities that is safe in the correct hands - just as anal sex - or light bondage, even wearing rubber carries rick of harm in the wrong hands. Avoiding discussions on such activities doesn't help 'vanillas' become more accepting of us, thats such a falicy. I would rather enjoy good SAFE edge play with a knife with someone who knows what they are doing than painful and unsafe straight sex with someone who didnt have a clue.

Peace and Love




Mercnbeth -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 1:14:00 PM)

quote:

this topic (of opposing Bush's anti-BDSM campaign)


I regret that in 2004 I was put in a position where I felt compelled to vote for the man, but for all he has done and continues to do wrong, he is not running an "anti-BDSM campaign. Not personally and not with legislation he has suggested. Although Bush more than likely is "anti-BDSM" and anti-pornography, it's never been part of a platform he ran on, any more than censorship or anti-censorship has been a platform for EITHER party.

If you want a group that does attack "porn" and has "anti porn" and specifies BDSM as "unhealthy and harmful" you need to attack the National Organization of Woman. NOW organized a protest against Clear Channel because they were offering a context prize of breast augmentation: http://www.now.org/lists/now-action-list/msg00165.html

Back in 1998, Virginia NOW enjoined a Catholic politician and helped him by backing his "anti-porn" campaign. Virginia Delegate Dick Black and Marie-José Ragab, president of the Dulles chapter of NOW joined forces against "Internet Porn". To them;
"sexual harassment through Internet pornography is an important issue.

Interestingly enough, they didn't try do do it by voting. He had and the local NOW organization to brought a lawsuit to implement his and NOW's personal agenda. Attacking unrestricted access to the Internet in public libraries.

quote:

Ragab has sent letters to 17 NOW chapters in Virginia urging them to support Black. She says that this is a "very good test to challenge their stance on sexual harassment." Her group has officially demanded the resignation of national NOW leaders because of their lack of support for this issue which Ragab says has "divided women very much."

In her letter to the other chapters, Ragab says, "While the matter is presently confined to Loudoun County, an area of Dulles NOW, the case is closely watched by public libraries across Virginia and the rest of the nation, for this has the makings of a Supreme Court ground-breaking ruling."

Both parties recognized that if pornography is provided in public places at the government’s expense, this would be a huge setback for women’s rights and a barrier to all anti-sexual harassment laws. Black and Ragab agreed that a merger on the issue there would provide "a greater political dynamic at work."

Both are convinced that if the case reaches the Virginia Court of Appeals, it stands a lasting chance in establishing permanent anti-pornography access legislation.
Entire Article: http://www.catholicherald.com/articles/00articles/blacknow.htm

I deliberately sought an article from prior to 2000, just to illustrate that the attack on Internet pornography did NOT start with the election of President Bush.

I'd suggest this group, who takes on NOW directly on this issue. They site this quote from Betty Friedman; "To suppress free speech in the name of protecting women is dangerous and wrong.". Membership is only $35.00; Limited Income/Student Membership is only $10.00. BTW - Membership to NCSF is only $25. The links area on their site provides many other places to seek anti-censorship organizations.
http://www.ffeusa.org/html/statements/statements_pornography.html

I'd recommend joining and supporting any and all groups who you feel present a position that you can support. NOW is not a "bad" organization because they have an anti porn faction. The ACLU is not a "good" group because they, selectively in my opinion, champion 1st Amendment rights.

The "solution" is as simple as John Warren represents and as complicated as Soul Hunter's "self censoring". Trying to censor yourself or your website is missing one key component - censor what? Define "obscene". My guess is every website owner would love to have a defined set of rules and definitions. There isn't one. As others have pointed out, any regulatory group will attack the weak, those least likely of having the financial ability to withstand the onslaught of prosecution. Look around. Proportionally there really isn't a lot of specific cases of prosecution happening in relationship with the number of "porn" sites. But more "porn" sites are closing down every day. Why? Because of the threat. It's an effective tactic. Again, as John's said, unless you have your head on the chopping block, you can't argue against their decision to close.

I think it is easier for those active in the lifestyle in reality versus on-line, because we see and are around people and can join in and support them. John's continuing in his educational presentations is an example of what to do - LIVE. Go and support the open clubs. Go to munches. Go to events. Go to demonstrations. Maybe if this weekend everyone went and enjoined a group in real time somewhere versus logging on to some Internet site to complain about increasing censorship you'd discover a few things. Who knows - maybe we are really the real "silent" majority. At the very least you will find out this lifestyle is MUCH more fun experienced real.




candystripper -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 1:36:44 PM)

quote:

I think it is easier for those active in the lifestyle in reality versus on-line, because we see and are around people and can join in and support them. John's continuing in his educational presentations is an example of what to do - LIVE. Go and support the open clubs. Go to munches. Go to events. Go to demonstrations. Maybe if this weekend everyone went and enjoined a group in real time somewhere versus logging on to some Internet site to complain about increasing censorship you'd discover a few things. Who knows - maybe we are really the real "silent" majority. At the very least you will find out this lifestyle is MUCH more fun experienced real.

Mercnbeth


i admit to being confused. i have been aware of NOW's anti-porn stance for some time, but did not consider them the reason for concern atm. My understanding was the FBI and Attorney General had set aside resources to attack "porn on the 'net" and that to date, certain BDSM sites such as red rose (which i never saw) were closed either by government fiat or by threat of same.

Am i missstating the circumstances? Someone i respect urged me to join NCSF rather than beginning a new group to oppose this federal initative. i know the Campaign for Human Rights has been working to oppose the proposed constitutional amendment to bay gay marriage, and i have joined their effort.

As for joining a munch; are people in attendance going to be receptive to having the evening's agenda hijacked to discuss politics? Seems a bit pushy to show up as a new member with a new plan for the group already in hand.

i feel there has been some mix-up. How one conducts one's personal life; whether as a private matter or as a frequent visitor to a dungeon; seems irrelevant to me in taking effective political action...if in fact, any action will be effective.

Now is not the time, i think, to tell people that they are "lesser" members of BDSM, have less at stake, and are unwelcome in the political struggle BDSM apparently faces. Now seems to be the time to come together and join our usually discordant voices in one, saying "no" to censorship.

candystripper




Mercnbeth -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 2:28:03 PM)

quote:

Now is not the time, i think, to tell people that they are "lesser" members of BDSM, have less at stake, and are unwelcome in the political struggle BDSM apparently faces.


Did you hold my post up to a mirror, read every third word, or record it and play it backward to come up with that message?

I offered a way to mobilize by supporting the people who are on the front lines by attendance at their functions. It is just as important if not more important than monetary contribution. It's also not as safe, and requires a commitment to stand up for who you are and what you are confident to support. Back in the day, you could buy your way out of military service, it was a cowards way out. Money, although important, is not as valuable as physical presence.

quote:

As for joining a munch; are people in attendance going to be receptive to having the evening's agenda hijacked to discuss politics? Seems a bit pushy to show up as a new member with a new plan for the group already in hand.


Going anyplace, whether it's a lifestyle Munch or a meeting of the Condo Board for the first time with the idea of "hijacking" and dominating the discussion with a personal agenda will get the same unwelcome response. But going up to the owner of club or the leader of the group and asking how they are dealing with the problem and what, if anything, you can do to help more than likely will be welcomed.

There is a demo we are more than likely attending tomorrow. It provides a lot of time to socialize. Tuesday night we're planning on attending a Munch in our neighborhood. It's election day, as well as beth's birthday, so I'm sure between the pre-requisite birthday spanks, politics WILL come up. If anyone wanted to attend either event and generate discussion among the people in attendance on this subject they could, and they'd be welcome. What you don't appreciate is that the mere fact that you are there in attendance IS addressing the problem. That's it.

What do you propose, an anonymous letter writing campaign using various made up nicknames and persona?




TheHungryTiger -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 3:30:58 PM)

quote:

i admit to being confused. i have been aware of NOW's anti-porn stance for some time, but did not consider them the reason for concern atm. My understanding was the FBI and Attorney General had set aside resources to attack "porn on the 'net" and that to date, certain BDSM sites such as red rose (which i never saw) were closed either by government fiat or by threat of same.

Am i missstating the circumstances?
I really wish sometimes there was a BDSM section for the snoops webpage.

Compare the panicked reactionary emails that were being forwarded to everyone that said the government was trying to tax instant messaging. Though there is a few small grains of truth to the story, the reaction is blown totally out of proportion and takes a lot of stuff out of context to try and make for a good story.

Or as a better example, try and remember the "constitutional amendment to ban gay mariage". Every single person including Bush himself knew there was absolutely no chance in hell of there ever being a constitutional amendment. Bush just threw a bone to the bible-thumpers to keep them quiet for a while.

1) Yes there is a "porn squad". Its made up of a grand total of eight agents right now. Thats all. Just eight. Inside the DOJ the whole project is a total joke. Ya had better not piss off your boss or he will transfer you to the porn squad. If the DOJ was WalMart, then the porn squad would be pushing shopping carts out of the parking lot. It is the job your assigned to do as punishment.

2) Red Rose hasn't been charged with anything. There was an investigation against a pedophile and some material from Red Rose was found on that guys computer. They are evidence in a separate case, not the case itself.

3) Max hardcore likewise hasn't been officially charged with anything either. It is again the case where the feds were looking for kiddy-porn. It should be noted that max hardcore has already had a case go to the supreme court once before and he won

4) Several other websites that have pulled content have done so not because they were threatened by the FBI, but because they feared that the end was near and that any day now the crackdown will be coming. Thats the same kind of "the sky if falling" panic that caused people to stock up on bottled water and buy generators before Y2K.

5) The bulk of closing websites are shutting down not because of fear of obscenity charges, but because they cant handle the increased load of paperwork. This is especially true of the "labor of love" websites that are being run by a single individual on a part time basis. Now to put this in perspective, the amount of ret tape and bureaucratic paperwork required to run a porn website even counting in this huge increase, is still smaller than the bureaucratic paperwork you have to file in order to sell a loto ticket if you run a quickie mart.

I *HIGHLY* suggest you visit http://www.graydancer.com/ropeweekly/ and download the show for October 10th. There is an interview with Jay Wiseman (auther of SM101) where he debunks a lot of the panicky rumors that are currently flying around about "the war on porn". He is currently in the process of getting his law degree, so I consider him more informed abotu issues of BDSM and the law than just about anybody.




JohnWarren -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 5:30:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger
4) Several other websites that have pulled content have done so not because they were threatened by the FBI, but because they feared that the end was near and that any day now the crackdown will be coming. Thats the same kind of "the sky if falling" panic that caused people to stock up on bottled water and buy generators before Y2K.


Pure panic. Like those people who left New Orleans prior to Katrina or who stocked up on bottled water and bought generators before Wilma hit her. Like the good Tutsis who fled Ruranda on "baseless rumors" there would be trouble. We should be good citizens like the Jews who knew, that regardless of whatever party ran Germany. it was a civilized land and they had nothing to fear.

It's a warm comforting feeling to know that the ebbs and flows of political forces really don't have any lasting effect on our comfort. It's knowledge we can rest comfortable upon... rest. rest in peace




candystripper -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 5:47:24 PM)

quote:

It's a warm comforting feeling to know that the ebbs and flows of political forces really don't have any lasting effect on our comfort. It's knowledge we can rest comfortable upon... rest. rest in peace

JohnWarren


You know where i stand...beside people i think are able, willing and ready to defend our freedom by doing more than writing derisive comments on a BDSM website's message board.

candystripper




TheHungryTiger -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 7:42:49 PM)

quote:

Pure panic. Like those people who left New Orleans prior to Katrina or who stocked up on bottled water and bought generators before Wilma hit her. Like the good Tutsis who fled Ruranda on "baseless rumors" there would be trouble. We should be good citizens like the Jews who knew, that regardless of whatever party ran Germany. it was a civilized land and they had nothing to fear.

It's a warm comforting feeling to know that the ebbs and flows of political forces really don't have any lasting effect on our comfort. It's knowledge we can rest comfortable upon... rest. rest in peace

Pure panic. Like the people crying that the Communications Decency Act was going to be the end of freedom of speech on the Internet as we know it. Like the people that warned the John Robinson killings would be the center focus of media attention for years and would cause a harsh crackdown on the BDSM community. Like all the dire prophecy that the media is going to be pushing Anthony Fredericks as the lead story on the front page for months and how that one event was the doom of the entire BDSM community. Like the attempted closure of Beat Me In St Louis was just the tip of the iceberg and that any day now would come a huge government crackdown on all things kinky.

I admit this may not be chicken little. It may be the boy who cried wolf. It could be all these other events that were suppose to herald the death of the BDSM community were just false alarms and this time its REAL. But the fact that there has been a grand total of zero cases taken to court since the 2257 updates kind of makes me feel that this is not doomsday.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 10:13:53 PM)

OK, not to sound obtuse, but WASN'T THAT THE POINT? I don't understand what you're trying to say. The legislation isn't bad because it's not shutting down websites; it's just causing website operators to shut down because they can't handle the extra paperwork? Then isn't the legislation causing websites to shut down by drowning them in paperwork?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

The bulk of closing websites are shutting down not because of fear of obscenity charges, but because they cant handle the increased load of paperwork.





TheHungryTiger -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 10:49:02 PM)

It is bad law. And the instant 2257 goes to appelet review it will be argued that "chilling efect" is happening and then cite United States of America vs. Extreme Associates to show that if an item is legal, then legslation blocking the distrubution of that item is efectivly rendering the item itself ilegal. When this happens, the bad law will get overturned.

What I am trying to do is point out what the law actualy is, not what reactionary hysterics claim the law is. From the way some people are reacting you would think that 2257 read "George Bush himself personaly now has legal right to kick down the door of anyone he disagrees with religiously and drag that person off to a fenced camp for reeducation"

In no way am I claiming that we should all just sit back and relax with our feet up. All I am saying is that now is not the time to be waiting up sitting in a chair in yoru living room with a loaded shotgun in fear that the feds will raid you in the middle of the night.





Lordandmaster -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (11/4/2005 11:03:57 PM)

Yeah, I hope so. But with benches stuffed with right-wing ideologues, I'm not as optimistic as I would have been ten years ago.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

It is bad law. And the instant 2257 goes to appelet review it will be argued that "chilling efect" is happening and then cite United States of America vs. Extreme Associates to show that if an item is legal, then legslation blocking the distrubution of that item is efectivly rendering the item itself ilegal. When this happens, the bad law will get overturned.





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