RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights

RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (Full Version)

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 3:59:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wipmebeetme100 Do you honestly believe that they will put forth the effort that you would? Are they as passionate about this as you are? Do you know what the NSCF has done and is doing? Pink in her current circumstances can't travel and can't even meet for regular business meetings. I love and support passion and activism, and if Pink feels this is her calling in life then she should persue it. But research the resources you have.

mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 4:10:28 PM)
PP, Realistically, the only hope at ACLU is if a KAP lawyer is also into BDSM or takes a friendly view and and hangs with the ACLU. Then, considering the law....... What first amendment right has been breached? How has is been breached? What are the chances that the Supreme Court would hear the argument? for those who dont know it: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. You only petition the government for a redress of grievances, a clever argument may be constructed that the pilgrims freedoms descend to us..... Who is that clever? now, one can certainly make the argument that these things are a violation of fourth amendment rights: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. However; that amendment has pretty much been gutted by the terrorism shit. Certainly you can find the website for your congressman and senator (state and federal) and governor and even the white house. So now I go up to say Detroit Lakes, Minnesota (a 45 minute ride) and talk to Collin Peterson, who will listen to me politely, or start at state and talk to Dean Simpson, who runs Dean's Country Market in Perham, Minnesota and say look, you gotta do something about this.......... They should give a glimmer of a fuck why? PACs put money in their pocket, get them blowjobs. A constitiuency must be the force to drive this. Numbers, people.... Therein lies the problem at hand. You can take time to find numbers, or you can attach to an existing group that has no reason to back your agenda, save you are an ever increasing constituency and they will look at your viewpoint as soon is theirs is solved. Forget what you learned in History, kids. Executive Branch, Judical Branch and so on and think RealPolitik....... In the end analysis we would be better off joining some christian BDSM group and playing this off as a religious abridgement, at least as far as my eye can see....... Call me frivolous, Ron edited because I can't even spell the state I am from (this should give you pause in considering the validity of any argument I construct on this topic)

mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 4:28:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures OK, i deeply apologise but i need a Ron - to -english dictionary. pinkpleasures You certainly don't need to apologize to me, PP.......I was the one being obtuse........ However; Ron-to-english dictionaries are sold in the lobby......Half of the cost will be donated to the Koalition for Kinksters. MAKE A DIFFERENCE. XO, Ron

pinkpleasures -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 4:46:35 PM)
quote: Do you know what the NSCF has done and is doing? Pink in her current circumstances can't travel and can't even meet for regular business meetings. I love and support passion and activism, and if Pink feels this is her calling in life then she should persue it. But research the resources you have. LuckyAlbatross I'll decide what i am capable of, whom i meet, and what level and style of involvement i choose. Left-handed compliments; passive agressive conduct; turns me off. pinkpleasures

Mercnbeth -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 4:46:35 PM)
quote: A constituency must be the force to drive this. Numbers, people.... Therein lies the problem at hand. You can take time to find numbers, or you can attach to an existing group that has no reason to back your agenda, save you are an ever increasing constituency and they will look at your viewpoint as soon is theirs is solved. Ron - BRAVO!! I spent a couple of shekels on this matter. The PAC is the easy part. Then what? Collect money - GREAT - if it gets in the Mega Millions range. Until then the numbers just aren't there. The BDSM community is a minority of a minority of a minority. We are a sub group within a group of sexually active people with very specialized preferences most commonly represented as "freaks", and most often consider freaky. Publicly, at best, we show up most often as neurotic unfunctioning self abusers as in the movie "The Secretary". At worse we're shown in an episode of Jerry Springer. Any "exception" to this stereotype will be perceived as only that - an exception. A candle in the wind. The advise that I received from both ACLU and NCFC people was to maintain a low profile and wait until the wind dies down. They are fighting specific battles, and get a lot more support money, and publicity when they fight to take down a Christian symbol, then they would defending my right to beat beth with a flogger in a club in LA. In an attempt to not err in my representation of what I was told I'll put it more clearly. In the face of people not being allowed to marry just because they are the same sex; our lifestyle was NOT a priority. We just don't have the "numbers". Even if all the nearly 200,000 members of CollarMe wrote a letter to their congress representatives it's just not going to do much good. So just live your life - try to represent when you can. The only other hope that there is some kind of coalition of all the frustrated, disjointed, and disenfranchised minority groups and we become part of the "mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore" grass roots movement. But considering the general lack of pragmatism that exists exhibited by the infighting among the 200,000; I just don't see that happening either. The weird thing is, I don't think we are a real minority. I think most sexually active adults have tried BDSM play, or would like too. But that's another debate.

pinkpleasures -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 4:54:07 PM)
Hey guys; a lengthy discourse on how hopeless the situation is advances us not a bit. We can sit around and whine about losing our rights or we can make a move on our own behalf. pinkpleasures

mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 5:03:46 PM)
Thank you for your kind words, Merc and Beth. There ain't no 200,000 here cause 90% of the goddamn posts are about fear of outing.........if this is so, then we are freaks. I happen to chose that this is really really really really normal. I just hang, it ain't that I gotta start talking about the slobber of some woman everytime someone talks about they got a little at the office, nor do I feel compelled to de-armiore myself every fucking time I go to a holiday or funeral with the family. My parents did not give me the story of how I was born and if they did I am sure it was more than, well you see.....(clinical explanation goes here)... If we could get past the embarrassment of the fact that we fuck in this country, and that even sewer workers want blowjobs, it is just that presidents have more opportunity to solicit them, then we might start looking at this in a rational fashion....... You once wrote a post on a KinkFair of some type that occurred once when the threads ran toward the dark alley of how do you deal with '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''Vanilla'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' people tripe. One of the points you made was that alotta non-kinky (as percieved) people were there like tourists and having a great fucking time, learning. I am reticent to get kicked.....I am always on the edge anyway here. I FEEL I AM MISCIEVED (LOL) but I goddamn oughtta bump that thread....... Ron Well, we all could stand to learn a little and a couple things might be that we ain't alone, and we ain't tolerant as we say we are. I will say my faults are legion, by god; Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa

JohnWarren -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 5:11:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wipmebeetme100 quote: On reflection, i think we are best served by joining an existing organization; the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom or possibly the ACLU; and not beginning something from scratch. Do you honestly believe that they will put forth the effort that you would? Are they as passionate about this as you are? I think the most effective thing would be to form a seperate group whose soul purpose is focused on changing this current issue. The group can always align itself with either of those two organizations, partner with them. Utilize them in different ways...yet still have individuality. I know it sounds like alot of hard work.....thats because it will be. Nothing worth fighting for is easy. Want to work hard? Join an existing organization and work hard. There is so much in running an organization that doesn't show, like managing offices, recruiting volunteers, making contacts. Reinventing the wheel has an attraction, but it doesn't go anywhere and it uses up energy that could be used to work on the wagon. This is particularly important in political things where numbers count.

mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 5:16:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures Hey guys; a lengthy discourse on how hopeless the situation is advances us not a bit. We can sit around and whine about losing our rights or we can make a move on our own behalf. pinkpleasures I am not concerned whether this is hopeless or not. I am not whining. I am not gonna bring shit to ruin just because I feel I gotta do something.... I am a man with a sack. I will do as Mercnbeth if that's all that can be done. On the other hand, if more than the same few post and want to get involved, I'm your boy (in a very limited fucking sense, of course). Is it wrong to point out that the road is fraught with danger? Two roads diverged in a yellow woods and I? Here is a man with experience on this end that says he has some research and experience, I don't see anything he said that said quit.......I think he said that running down the hill and fucking one is not as satisfying as walking down and fucking them all. So there's WMD out there ...... Let's do something...... (my bid is then if you want, let's get the plan, inform the troops, pick leaders, make sure it is doable....make it better than the plans for Iraq..... ) or get a new dictionary........ Whatever. Ron edited because I wanted to jump out and check...... 154 people online right now....who knows for how long and most of them talking about toothpaste on their clit..... It will be a hard road.........

Mercnbeth -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 5:26:23 PM)
quote: Hey guys; a lengthy discourse on how hopeless the situation is advances us not a bit. We can sit around and whine about losing our rights or we can make a move on our own behalf. Pink, Not what I'm saying at all. I'm telling you I traveled down the path you are suggesting a little bit and reporting the results. I'll stand and "represent" anytime asked. I don't hide. Hell, I'll even assign the temporary tax ID I obtained to save you the trouble. Let's do poly-sci "cyber". Take away any of the monetary and even the organization hurdles; which national party will entertain a BDSM lifestyle plank in their platform? Too big a scale? Which locality would allow you to open a BDSM "Reading Room" similar to the Christian Scientists? I don't see it as "hopeless". What's hopeless? I'm happy, content, and stable. If CM and all the other ancillary sites dropped off the face of the earth it wouldn't change those fundamental facts. The "discourse" was reality. One of the reasons I don't practice or participate in any cyber version of this lifestyle is because I enjoy reality and face it regularly. Fantasy is a fun mental exercise, but it's not a place to live and it's not a place to achieve any real result.

pinkpleasures -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 5:33:11 PM)
quote: I don't see it as "hopeless". What's hopeless? I'm happy, content, and stable. If CM and all the other ancillary sites dropped off the face of the earth it wouldn't change those fundamental facts. The "discourse" was reality. One of the reasons I don't practice or participate in any cyber version of this lifestyle is because I enjoy reality and face it regularly. Fantasy is a fun mental exercise, but it's not a place to live and it's not a place to achieve any real result. Mercnbeth Usually i agree with you two, but here i disagree. i do not want to live in a country where BDSM is mixed up with prohibited porn; i want the web site owners to be left alone; i want the chance to find a Dom even if He is in Outter Mongolia, which i cannot do without CM and it's fellow sites. In general i react badly to repression. pinkpleasures

mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 5:44:46 PM)
well, while Mercandbeth is capable of defending his own visions, I feel that this is taken out of context. this is a problem here, internicine squabbling.... nobody here in US TWO (oh fuck Merc aint you just about squicked about being culled with me? LMAO) said quit or you are wrong or anything, the first step here is the discussion. You are welcome to your feelings, you need the site. what is the next order of business.........that is how do you remove the focus of toothpaste on your clit and realign it with the slow undoing of your inalienable rights? Especilly in light of Mercandbeths experience, that this is indeed a numbers game and will not a prize to be won at the Olmstead county courthouse, but in the government and its vast and benevolent care? Seems really that most posts have taken the road that diverged towards the under the radar school of civil disobedience. Ron

pinkpleasures -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 5:51:50 PM)
quote: well, while Mercandbeth is capable of defending his own visions, I feel that this is taken out of context. this is a problem here, internicine squabbling.... nobody here in US TWO (oh fuck Merc aint you just about squicked about being culled with me? LMAO) said quit or you are wrong or anything, the first step here is the discussion. You are welcome to your feelings, you need the site. what is the next order of business.........that is how do you remove the focus of toothpaste on your clit and realign it with the slow undoing of your inalienable rights? Especilly in light of Mercandbeths experience, that this is indeed a numbers game and will not a prize to be won at the Olmstead county courthouse, but in the government and its vast and benevolent care? Seems really that most posts have taken the road that diverged towards the under the radar school of civil disobedience. Ron i grew up in the era of civil disobedience; my ire is up over this new initiative against BDSM; and i am looking for like-minded people to decide how best to express my opinions. i'm not too sure what You're doing, Ron; my Ron - - english dictionary is on back order, LOL. pinkpleasures

mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 6:10:01 PM)
Today I have no hidden agenda or goof. I am really speaking plainly. My observation is that there is no foundation nor no number in the civil disobedience game. Perhaps for the war in Iraq. Not BDSM. I asked a simple question, and have yet to recieve an answer..... How can you couch this such that this is an abridgement of your first amendment rights. This war will not be won in the legislative branch. This is simply a re-definition by the current administration that there is no abridgement of any fundamental right accorded you or me by the constitiution. You must admit that as a lawyer, that you don't argue according to philisophical rules. You may forward the notion that this is a slippery slope. Having once tasted the poison well (that is, if you buy the assumption you buy the deal for reason (I proffer the 4th amendment abridgment due to fucking terrorism) ) that the slow undoing of the right is good and just and benefits us all. Now, your bedroom is challenged and I just don't think people understand that. enough......I can not discuss legal matters with you, cowboy.....I would not have an ounce of leg to stand on. Ron (but by god, I know you see where I am going) China, has legislated in it's time the limit to having of children, for the good of the populus. What would ben franklin think if he walked in to an airport and saw a pay toilet? Would he marvel at the planes? Ron

pinkpleasures -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 7:03:39 PM)
Ron...one arena in which we could possibly prevail (off the top of my head) is in supporting any relevant litigation, especially by filing an amicus brief on appeal. The grounds that occur to me are privacy rights losely recognised as "penumbra" of the four corners of the Constitution. A second arena to attempt to effectuate change would be the legislative committeess, such as House Appropriations, where FBI and other government entities are supervised. i think everyone can agree a small constitutency of the religious right is driving the train; we can effecutate change as a small group as well, if we can find sympathetic legislators. We can also watchdog the situation, and appear in person or otherwise, opposing prosecutions at the state or federal level in the communities where they are conducted. i am not saying we can turn back the tide, or that our privacy rights will be legally cognizable -- i agree with your statements re: the Homeland Security Act and other legislation. What i am saying is, if we take no action, and we lose CM and other sites, we have no one but ourselves to blame. pinkpleasures

mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 7:25:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures Ron...one arena in which we could possibly prevail (off the top of my head) is in supporting any relevant litigation, especially by filing an amicus brief on appeal. The grounds that occur to me are privacy rights losely recognised as "penumbra" of the four corners of the Constitution. pinkpleasures How would one be alerted to this mia amica? As for liegent lawmakers, Barney Frank would come to mind, I bet he spanks!!!!!! Ron

JohnWarren -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 7:30:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail As for liegent lawmakers, Barney Frank would come to mind, I bet he spanks!!!!!! Ron Barney Frank doesn't seem to have the kink gene, but he's spoken favorably about scene people having privacy rights. I worked with him a bit when I was in Boston.

pinkpleasures -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 7:32:11 PM)
quote: How would one be alerted to this mia amica? As for liegent lawmakers, Barney Frank would come to mind, I bet he spanks!!!!!! Ron Tracking litigation isn't that hard; you know what courthouse it will be filed in and keep abreast of anything filed. pinkpleasures

mnottertail -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 8:15:13 PM)
Well, just off the top of my head......... I really like your idea of the penultimate umbrella.......that's as close as I can come to american for the latin 'penumbra' covering the four cornerposts of the constitution.........my little revolutionary........LOL Seems like if you could catch a case............it would be alotta exposure, or big bang for a buck. So far it seems tho, that most sites are shutting down and people are clamming up.......otherwise Miller might be invoked and re-tested....... and I am quite aware that it is anathema to overturn cases at that level........seems like it could be left to the owners disgression if it made it that far.... Nobody would be interested in trying to struggle with the already nebulous issues of that.........perhaps the defense of that would be to call em out and ask ....... What is obscene? I think penultimately (LMAO) that a case would be shot down in supreme court, I dont much give a fuck if it is Judge Roy Bean and his henchmen there......... But how do you be optimistic about these things when the guys and gals there take a swig and say is anyone behind us? Ron

pinkpleasures -> RE: Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (10/31/2005 9:09:16 PM)
quote: But how do you be optimistic about these things when the guys and gals there take a swig and say is anyone behind us? Ron Ron, i'm not "optimistic" -- i am "realistic" with a memory of McCarthyism. BTW, has anyone seen "Good Night and Good Luck" yet? Was it good? pinkpleasures

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