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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:01:45 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And sophistry trying to pass off 'clever' revisionism  that spins racism as the victim's fault is serving exactly what master again?

Wouldn't know.  Enlighten me.


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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:01:58 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
However, my view of a racist is someone who hates someone simply on the basis of who or what they are and/or will deny them opportunity based on that.

For example, my ex-girlfriend always said "Keeev, baybeee if ya'll keep hiring them to do shit for ya or buyin their crap they aint never goin' home" To me THAT is a racist. Not me.


"With the right combination of neutron warheads and chemical weapons we can achive complete depopulation quickly, and have Halliburton in there to start disposing of corpses and"


Bitatrouble i was wondering as what seems to me a good example of someone with evolved opinions perhaps you can help me with a question that comes to mind,the question is this ...How many offers from secret racist organizations have you recieved lately...and furthermore how often do you find yourself referring to a rasict as a boyfriend...".You shall be known by the company you keep"

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:06:50 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Not just hate, DA, but assigning all sorts of characteristics to people based on their ethnicity is rascism as well.  "Those Hispanics sure are hard-working, the Asians are such good students, if not for whisky, the rish would rule the world."  Culture is not the same as race.

      Great people come in all colors.  So do trash.


Heretic, noted and guilty as charged. I guess I am a racist afterall...However, my intent was to speak positively of the hispanics - contrary to the stereotypes unfairly assigned to them. However, your point is valid and I guess that by extending opportunity to Hispanics whenever possible I am in face racist in that I favor them.

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:07:21 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

"You shall be known by the company you keep"


Like the company you 'publicly applaud' who claims that the women and children who died in the Tuskegee experiment weren't  deliberately infected by the government's actions in keeping the men from knowing they had the disease?


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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:10:52 PM   
celticlord2112


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*yawn*

Figured as much.  So much for enlightenment.


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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:11:55 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
However, my view of a racist is someone who hates someone simply on the basis of who or what they are and/or will deny them opportunity based on that.

For example, my ex-girlfriend always said "Keeev, baybeee if ya'll keep hiring them to do shit for ya or buyin their crap they aint never goin' home" To me THAT is a racist. Not me.


"With the right combination of neutron warheads and chemical weapons we can achive complete depopulation quickly, and have Halliburton in there to start disposing of corpses and"




Bita, while I conceeded racism in the earlier post regarding what heretic noted I am going to deny it in the example you cite. That is on a whole other topic and is a means to accomplish a military objective. Race is not a factor, as an officer I would hold the same view if the resources in question were in Luxemborg or some country filled with Blonde haired blue eyed nordic types. The firebombing of Dresden was against Germans, Hiroshima / Nagasaki against asians, the entire cold war targeted russians and other baltic peoples...  That isnt racism thats military strategy and the prosecution of a target to achieve a military objective.

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:17:42 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

How many offers from secret racist organizations have you recieved lately...and furthermore how often do you find yourself referring to a rasict as a boyfriend...".You shall be known by the company you keep"


Zero and never. (And thank you for the compliment.)

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 6/8/2008 10:22:31 PM >


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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:22:02 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

"You shall be known by the company you keep"


Like the company you 'publicly applaud' who claims that the women and children who died in the Tuskegee experiment weren't  deliberately infected by the government's actions in keeping the men from knowing they had the disease?


I will not defend nor qualify my opinion of CL beyond what I originally said which amounts to this(BTW not sure I could or would apply this to YOU)he is sincere and honest in his own beliefs...and further can carry on an intelligent conversation  disagreeing intently with the other party and do this with no rancor...something that is all too rare here...myself included at times,but than i have allways been impetuous and foolish(see ex-wife)

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:25:48 PM   
Alumbrado


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Oh, there is nothing you could say which could unring that bell.  

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:26:06 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
I will not defend nor qualify my opinion of CL beyond what I originally said which amounts to this(BTW not sure I could or would apply this to YOU)he is sincere and honest in his own beliefs...and further can carry on an intelligent conversation  disagreeing intently with the other party and do this with no rancor...something that is all too rare here...myself included at times,but than i have allways been impetuous and foolish(see ex-wife)

Hell, Mike....it's my slave that's supposed to do all the blushing!

Besides, stick around.  I can be quite the asshole when sufficiently motivated


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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:26:14 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Shades of Marvin Zindler....
First time I saw him on the Zombiebox back in 80 I was on the floor in stitches.

Then there was that Gallery Furniture guy.

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 10:43:01 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

[Bitatrouble i was wondering as what seems to me a good example of someone with evolved opinions perhaps you can help me with a question that comes to mind,the question is this ...How many offers from secret racist organizations have you recieved lately...and furthermore how often do you find yourself referring to a rasict as a boyfriend...".You shall be known by the company you keep"


Mike, you seem to have a major hard on for me and thats OK. Nobody has to like me. However, your question to her isnt fair. First of all as a female, she wouldnt be invited to join a MENS organization. The Klan / Kamelia etc is for men!

Secondly, she wouldn't be a member of mainstream Masonic organizations which are by definition FRATERNAL. Among other things to be a Mason you must "Be a man who comes of his own free will". To be a Shriner you must be a Mason. Thus, she wouldnt be in the masonic organizations She could potentially be a Rotarian, but they only began accepting female or minority members in the 1980's and are still very much a "old boys club". Thus she wouldnt be at a Masonic function to be approached by fellow members.

Third, I dont know what part of the country she lives in and if there is a Klan presence there. (Edited to add: I just checked her profile. Minnesota, not exactly the deep South and not part of the Confederacy.) 

 If there is no Klan presence, and she is not in any Masonic organizations and if she is female  the probability of her being recruited is zero.

As for dating racists... Good luck finding conservative Southern Baptist women who arent...   Take that up with her parents not me. I didnt raise BrittneyLee, I didnt raise DebraAnne I didnt raise Jessie, I didnt raise Abbie etc... All of them are openly racist... I dont raise them, by the time I get them they are at least 18 so their belief systems are not installed by me.  

Now you can keep trying to villify me and to claim as if I am some kind of "on the outside lunatic fringe" person but if you check the earlier posts in this thread in Post 31 I posted all kinds of links to recent racist events in "nice Houston suburbs"... Nooses hung in Pearland HS. a kid cornholed with a patio umbrella at a graduation party, the fatally failed integration of Vidor, etc I was present for none of these events, nor did I support or instigate them.   Yet all were evils done by members of racist organizations...

You can either accept my admonition that racism is far more widespread than you want to believe and there are a lot more extreme racists out there then you want to admit - or you can bury your head in the sand, paint me as some kind of anomaly approached by the only surviving Klansmen left in America and continue to feel good about the progress made to stamp out racism. Lie to yourself if it makes you feel better, but that doesnt make them go away. Im not a member of the Klan, and never will be, but there sure as hell are a lot of people who are and pretending they dont exist doesnt prevent horrific acts like what happened in Jasper, or Vidor, or Spring, or in any of 1000 other little sunset towns you never heard of. Don't shoot the messenger because he doesnt tell you what you want to hear. Im just honest enough to tell you that they are out there instead of saying "Nope, no racists left". Read the links in Post 31 and you will see otherwise... Who do you think got those suburban kids neonazi tattoos??? Hint, it wasnt me! 

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 6/8/2008 11:02:37 PM >

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/8/2008 11:14:56 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Im just honest enough to tell you that they are out there instead of saying "Nope, no racists left". Read the links in Post 31 and you will see otherwise... Who do you think got those suburban kids neonazi tattoos??? Hint, it wasnt me! 


There are at least 2 groups of people who might have an interest in denying that racism is the problem it really is.

One would be the truly naive you describe.  The other would be those covert racists who fancy themselves as 'clever' with their denial and revisionism.  You know, ''Now I'm no racist, buuuuuuuttt, they bring it on themselves..."

Since I can't read minds, but I can recognize patterns of sophistry, and since winnowing out racism is a survival skill for some who don't want to end up like Mr Byrd, I tend to be leery of both types....

But that's just me.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/8/2008 11:15:34 PM >

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/9/2008 1:35:32 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
However, your question to her isnt fair. First of all as a female, she wouldnt be invited to join a MENS organization. The Klan / Kamelia etc is for men!


I will absolutely stipulate to all of the responses you made regarding any question which Mike asked me about the Klan, Kamelia, Masons etc. I'm not a man, I live in MN and the odds of me being recruited here are unlikely. Just for the record, though, Mike didn't ask me about the Klan or the Kamelia etc. or if I had ever been recruited to join a men's org. He asked me if I had ever been recruited to join a secret, racist org. By the way - The Klan has a women's aux. Racisim, after all, is not gender specific.

I find both his questions to be very fair although I do believe them to be passive-aggressive in nature to prove a point to you specifically. That, however, is between the two of you and I really would rather not be a pawn in this little tete รก tete. If I have a question or statement, I have zero problems asking it.

For example why do you have a racist g/f? Do you see the possibility that by annoucing such that some can get the idea that you, at the very least, condone racism?

Re your other post on this thread to me: Why is depopulating a region via bombs and chemical weapons for some oil okay with you?  The Iraqi people aren't our enemy. They are not a military target nor a military objective. Most of them are just poor schlubs who want to feed their children (or who are children) and be left the hell alone, just like most of the people in the USA, in Canada, Mexico, China - oh, Hell, pick a country. Genocide over some oil? I don't get it. If you'd like to respond in the other thread, I'd be happy to take it there so as not to further derail Level's OP. No problem if you don't want to respond. I'm just nosy.

Oh, and for the record - as I said I do live in MN and I have for about 6 or 7 years now  .. but I'm not from MN. I was born in a little town called Rising Star, Texas in the ranch house of my Grandfather; a very devout Baptist, staunch republican, cattle rancher and devoted racist.

You see, I'm a confederate, conservative, Southern baptist by birth .. Yankee, liberal, tree-hugging, humanist by choice who has absolutely zero problems pissing off racists and I don't care what color hoods they wear .. even if they're made out of leather. It's not where we start that matters, Aviator .. it's where we end up that counts and how we get there is what we have to live with until we die. 



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He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/9/2008 3:30:13 AM   
DomAviator


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Bita, thanks for your reasonable and well thought out response. The reason I said the questions were unfair was that I made it amply clear in prior responses that the invitations to join the Klan were made via Masonic functions. Thus, his asking a female if she had been recruited is analagous to asking me if I have been asked to join the Daughters of the Alamo or the Fire Dept Ladies Aux. recently. Of course it will elicit a negative response, which is a meaningless negative as the person polled to respond in the negative will obviously do so as she is ineligible for membership and would not be at the functions in question. I was however unaware that the Klan had a women's aux, I obviously was not asked to join that...

In response to your direct question of why I would date a racist I will be brutally candid. It beats jerking off! LOL I am 40 years old, average looking etc.... When you are dating a beautiful little blonde Texan who isn't even old enough to buy a beer, the little head makes allowances for the "trophy factor". I am no longer dating her, as to be honest the novelty wore off and she was painfully dumb. (This is the one who looked at a lobster and called it "the biggest mudbug she ever saw" and who asked a sommelier if he had any Boone. To be honest as stunningly beautiful as she was I couldnt find any common ground with her and she was often a public embarassment - as in the case where she tipped an airline captain, oblivious to the fact that he makes over $200K a year.) However, she is not the only racist I have dated... When dealing with conservative Southern Baptists, who form the bulk of the people, in the Houston Bay Area, I find racism to be the rule rather than the exception. So, it is essentially a matter of tolerate it or develop carpal tunnel syndrome and callouses on my palm... As you noted by explaining your heritage, imagine a herd of people who, unlike you, have not turned from your Grandfathers views and who chose to remain confederate, conservative, Southern Baptists.

While I disagree with the treehugging humanist approach personally, I applaud your courage in changing views from what you were raised with and following your own path. However, I would also like to point out that you have removed yourself from the sphere of influence where the racist behavior is not merely tolerated but is in fact "the norm". In my case, taking a stand can and will lead to social ostracization, financial ruination, or worse. To be blunt, I need to earn a living and I earn that living largely from powerful and well to do Texans who are hard core old style Southerners. We are talking guys here who have half a million dollar plus toys that cost upwards of $1500 an hour to operate.  If I e-mail back a client and tell him that I found the racist joke he forwarded me offensive, that just might cost me $10,000.... If I walk away in disgust from a bunch of guys at a function who refer to the waiter as "Sambo" that just might cost me a $150,000 contract. If a guy sends me an e-mail requesting that I find him "a (n word) with a Lear 35 type rating so he can have a token (n word) on the books", I cant e-mail him back and deliver a tirade on how offensive that is because he will take his pilot staffing and recurrency training elsewhere - to someone who isn't in his view a "n word lover". So, by keeping my mouth shut and delivering him a black pilot qualified in the Lear 35 I keep the client, keep my business, and give the black pilot a job. Not only do I have my own lifestyle to maintain and bills to pay, but I have employees who rely on me as well and I am not in a position to forego my business and to work as a bagger at HEB in an effort to stamp out deeply held views that Im not going to change anyway.  It hasnt changed since the civil war, and I dont see it changing if I sacrifice myself on the altar of equality.

Im not going to get into precise details, but with margins being what they are and the cost of simulator time ($300 - $700 per hour), insurance, lawyers, instructors, content development / graphic arts people, advertising, printing, travel, motels, event venues, caterers, etc I need to gross eight figures a year to keep the doors open, keep everyone paid, and keep my six figure salary and the lifestyle that goes with it. Thats why Im online all the time, and sleep maybe 4 hours a day sometimes in two increments of 2 hours each, because I have 130+ e-mails a day to answer while burning up 3000+ minutes a month on my cell half of them from fucking asswipes that I cant stand! Im not in a position to start pissing off powerful members of the Texas Good Ol Boys network who can stick it up my ass and break it off...  Im being straight with you here, sometimes I miss the days when I was a fucking crop duster flying for $20 an hour or when I was driving Lears on salary for 58K, and I sure as shit miss the days when I didn't have a care in the world except checking the board to see when I was scheduled to fly and had a ship I called home...   However, those days are past and I chose my own course and now that Im on it I have to play by their rules. Their ballpark, their rules, and I cant change it.

So, to be as honest and direct as possible - I associate with racists because thats the way it is in the Bay Area and Im in too deep, and can't change it because Ive got too much invested in terms of blood, sweat, tears and sleepless nights and am too fucking old to start over.  Ive got 25 years left to fly, and even if I wanted to I cant go to a 737 right seat job at Continental for $31 an hour because just I dont have the time left to claw my way to becoming  a $186 an hour 777 Captain who gets to live where he wants to. The senority list would have me living in Gnome Alaska and moving 10 times in the next 5 years, I would spend three quarters of the month living in a motel, would wake up wondering what continent I am on, and the chances are that sooner rather than later the Captain would look over at me and say "Hey, there are these three ________ sharing an apartment and they all have a bf named Leroy..."   So what do I gain? I get to throw my life away and to listen to the same racist jokes, except this time from a superior officer instead of a client and for less money...

I realize you, and everyone else probably thinks thats a pussy excuse and the cowards way out etc, but thats the way it is. About the only thing I can do to fight it, without destroying myself, is to tell you that they are out there and they arent all toothless bastards in a Catterpillar baseball cap. They arent all the idiots you see on the Springer show in red robes screaming the N Word and making fools of themselves. Some of them are very rich, some of them are very powerful, some of them own corporate jets and half a million dollar helicopters and they cant be dismissed or underestimated, They arent gone, the "smart ones" just stay under the radar and like the man behind the curtain pull the strings to make ugly things like Jasper, and Vidor, and Spring happen. They are just smart enough not to get their own hands bloody, and to wind up the impressionable and terminally stupid to do the dirty work for them. Some of them raise kids too, even gorgeous girls who grow up to be women who parrot what daddy always said and sometimes I date those women. It doesnt mean I approve...  

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 6/9/2008 3:43:32 AM >

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/9/2008 3:36:14 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


Level, I'm going to extend my own apology to you for giving this post any sort of acknowledgment at all. I am ruled by doing the right thing as often as I am able and if I get Mod spanked for it, so be it. I'll sit in jail for as long as the PTB deem reasonable.

Regarding the actual OP: Level, I appreciate your posting of the link. When we forget the past or when we fail to learn from it, we will suffer the hell of continuing to repeat it. As a nation, we still have a lot of growing up to do. It's up to each of us as individuals to set an example to those who come after us. I don't believe we, as a nation will be able to rise to any level of greatness, a potential which I firmly believe is within us, until we do.



Hi, Celeste. I appreciate your comments, dear lady, as always. I see nothing you should be admonished for, your post is reasoned and civil, and I'm ready to smuggle you a nail file filled cake, if need be.
 
I didn't appreciate pink's post, due, as you stated, to the somber intent of the thread, but I know she didn't mean anything by it, she and I have always gotten along. And God knows I may have posted things at inappropriate times before, too...

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/9/2008 4:37:21 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

30 years ago it would have not raised much of an eyebrow in the national conciousness (unfortunate but true)
20 years ago it might have been swept under the rug with only a short jail sentance being passed and not much national attention
10 years ago it gathered huge national attention and all but universal condemnation.
Today the same incidentwould get pretty much universal condemnation and actually I think be a little less likely to have occured.
(More places have gotten more tollerant in general, slow progress but still progress)
10 years from now hopefully the tollerance will have remained a growing thing and the chances of this incident happening will be even smaller.

I'm glad for the progress repulsed by the high price it costs to put the ideas across, and hopefull that the progress will continue but without the high price.



i agree with this, and its had me thinking.  even though many on here seem to think all southern folks are racist toothless idiots, i have seen so many attitudes change throughout my lifetime.  so this thread got me to thinking what had changed family members of mine.

1976-a cousin gets pregnant....tells everyone that the father is a sailor she hooked up with for a while.  out comes baby 9 months later, and it is obvious he is half black.  Now this poor baby has a granddad from kennesaw, ga.  one who has never been around any race other than his own.  forgetting the shame he feels that his 17 yo got pregnant outside of marriage....now THIS!!!!!

but wait....this damn baby is adorable.....he is bright eyed and a happy baby.....and, just to be spiteful, he chooses his paw paw as his favorite human being in the world.  paw paw aint go a chance.  and suddenly "them black folks" are a much loved member of the family.  this kid goes everywhere with paw paw.  sure they get looks, and maybe even a few comments.  but paw paw can be one mean mutha and you dont diss his family.  so paw paws family members and friends start to change their minds about things.

this is the one thing that stood out in my mind......when my family changed from trying to make sure no one knew about this kid....to not caring who knew.  and daring anyone to say a thing.

i think small things like this are what will end racism.  that was 31 years ago, and that baby is now married and has babies of his own.  he faced teasing about being half black in school, but when you ask him about it he says if it wasnt that, it woulda been something else.  too pale, too many freckles, too big a butt, too skinny etc.  he realizes almost everyone is teased at some point, and his attitude about it made him very popular all his life.

that cousin was ahead of her time.....i now have so many bi-racial family members i can not keep count, and i dont try to. 

my point is, once you love someone who is different from you, it changes your attitude about all that are like that person.  and it wont be too many years before we are all "forced" to love some devious person, of a different race, weho comes in to our lives unexpectedly, and then i think racism will be a thing of the past.

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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/9/2008 4:52:04 AM   
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"Yankee, liberal, tree-hugging, humanist by choice who has absolutely zero problems pissing off racists and I don't care what color hoods they wear .. even if they're made out of leather. It's not where we start that matters, Aviator .. it's where we end up that counts and how we get there is what we have to live with until we die."  BitaTruble.

  Yay you!


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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/9/2008 8:32:24 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

About the only thing I can do to fight it, without destroying myself, is to tell you that they are out there and they arent all toothless bastards in a Catterpillar baseball cap.

DA, that's not fighting anything.  That's not fighting, that's not opposing, that's not even taking a stand on your own principles.




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RE: James Byrd Jr - 6/9/2008 8:45:03 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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quote:

I realize you, and everyone else probably thinks thats a pussy excuse and the cowards way out etc, but thats the way it is. About the only thing I can do to fight it, without destroying myself, is to tell you that they are out there and they arent all toothless bastards in a Catterpillar baseball cap. They arent all the idiots you see on the Springer show in red robes screaming the N Word and making fools of themselves. Some of them are very rich, some of them are very powerful, some of them own corporate jets and half a million dollar helicopters and they cant be dismissed or underestimated, They arent gone, the "smart ones" just stay under the radar and like the man behind the curtain pull the strings to make ugly things like Jasper, and Vidor, and Spring happen. They are just smart enough not to get their own hands bloody, and to wind up the impressionable and terminally stupid to do the dirty work for them. Some of them raise kids too, even gorgeous girls who grow up to be women who parrot what daddy always said and sometimes I date those women. It doesnt mean I approve...  


youre right, that is a pussy excuse.........if you dont have the balls to stand up for what you allegedly believe in, cause it might destroy you, you are condoning the behavior.

i mean how could you be destroyed? you could make 90k a year pickin up dog shit from folks yards.  you too good to do that? that only good work for those you want to see better them selves?  those you dont want to see discriminated against? those you wont join an organization to bitch about?

youre right....theyre not all 
quote:

toothless bastards in a Catterpillar baseball cap. They arent all the idiots you see on the Springer show in red robes screaming the N Word and making fools of themselves


some of them are holier than thou dudes who tolerate it and just say or do nothing to change it, because it suits their purpose for them self.

i am amazed that you were able to be an officer in any branch of the service.  the officers in the army i served in were held to a higher moral code, and you seem to only have whatever morals suit your purposes at the moment.





_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to DomAviator)
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