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Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 8:12:41 PM

fungasm

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Every year, heavy storms hit New Orleans. Every 12-30 years there is a typhoon, or category 5 Hurricane. The city itself is below sea level and sinking. New Orleans can't bury it's dead, much less it's trash. The entire sewage and water treatment infrastructure can't handle a normal storm season, much less on of the hurricanes that hits on a regular basis. The port of New Orleans no longer handles the same level of commerce, and the Mississippi isn't the trade route it used to be. The levees and dams can't handle the current movement of water.

Why are we spending so much to rebuild this? It would be better to discourage EVERYONE from coming back, relocate everybody (and any great buildings) and stop insuring this mess. I love the character of the city, and it's got amazing music and all sorts of fun things. But the water is coming back. Camille, Katrina, Rita... these aren't the only culprits. The water table makes for unsturdy foundations, so the buildings aren't architecturally sound to begin with. Not to mention that in the next 30 years, everything that is being built again will be under water, again. And then 20 years after that. There are now more than 100 types of virulent mold and mildew in more than 75% of the current standing structures. In the next 30 years, we are going to so see more than 50% of the population facing turberculosis, asthma, lung cancer and other disorders from their exposure here.

It's not about poverty or the 9th ward. It's about a geographic area that can handle 100,000 human inhabitants being asked to handle more than a million. The geography and topography of New Orleans can't support the level of human occupation that is there now. Can't we move New Orleans about 75 miles north so that it doesn't have the same issues?

Just a thought brought on by the post on New Orleans music....

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 8:27:49 PM

pahunkboy

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well- katrina, one could say, is da "liguidity problem"

anyhow the storm is no excuse to stop paying the rent or mortgage. all payments are to be made as well as all taxes.

after katrina hit- materials to redo houses went up

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 8:31:28 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Why are we spending so much to rebuild this?

New Orleans is a city exists because men need to trade and transact commerce.

The city predates the modern levee technology that holds this waters back. It exists because it straddles the Mississippi river, serving as transit point between cargo traffic in the Gulf of Mexico and up the Mississippi. Prior to Katrina, New Orleans was the hub of logistics/maintenance activity for oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico.

So long as New Orleans is an economic inevitability, it will be rebuilt.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 8:41:11 PM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Why are we spending so much to rebuild this?

New Orleans is a city exists because men need to trade and transact commerce.

The city predates the modern levee technology that holds this waters back. It exists because it straddles the Mississippi river, serving as transit point between cargo traffic in the Gulf of Mexico and up the Mississippi. Prior to Katrina, New Orleans was the hub of logistics/maintenance activity for oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico.

So long as New Orleans is an economic inevitability, it will be rebuilt.

Honestly, I disagree with the above. The logistics / maintenence of the platforms can be done out of Channelview, Galveston, LaPorte Tx, and Morgan City LA etc just as easily as they can out of NOLA.

As for the shipping we can rebuild the port more economically elsewhere. Hell, run the international containers out of Port Houston and just open a small terminal in a sheltered area in the Missisipi Delta to handle the river traffic.

In all honesty I agree with the OP in that the terrain is geographically not suited. NOLA should be reclaimed by the swamp... Shut it down, let it flood make it a nature preserve / Natl Wildlife Refuge. IMO it would be more sound from an engineering standpoint to abandon it, and move critical facilities elsewhere than to remain fighting a constant battle against nature to try to keep it dewatered. It is a below sea level basin surrounded on three sides by water... Personally, I wouldnt site anything important there and I think that many large companies are thinking the same about their critical infrastructure. I know that PHI (Petroleum Helicopter Intl) has scattered its fleet to Galveston, Laporte, Morgan City etc...

Why fight mother nature ? As for the current Houston contingent of refugees though - they dont have to go home but they cant stay here... LOL The idea of rebuilding inland ABOVE Lake Ponchitrain actually makes a lot of sense...

(in reply to celticlord2112)

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 8:51:08 PM

TheHeretic

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New New Orleans might be the best real solution. The loss of the namesake might even add some ambience to a new city, and we can let tourists dive on old Bourbon Street.

Tough to fight sentimentality though.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 8:52:33 PM

Irishknight

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I hate to say this but the reason is that we're stubborn. When settlers built N'Olins, it was a necessary port. It grew to being a prosperous city with a rich and exotic history. Now, rather than move everything, we rebuild it.

Besides, if we moved it, we'd have to reprint all the atlases and road maps.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 8:58:40 PM

Alumbrado

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And all the sports team logos would have to say 'New' New Orleans.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 9:01:43 PM

TheHeretic

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And it would be endlessly explained that it's pronounced "nuh'n'awlins"

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 9:12:24 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And all the sports team logos would have to say 'New' New Orleans.

Naaah. They could just say "New Orleans" with a little superscripted "2" after the "New." Kinda like New squared.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/8/2008 10:43:14 PM

Zensee

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Or how about "Tworleans".

Gotta agree with those saying move it to higher ground and let the rest flood.

Z.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 5:55:48 AM

sub4hire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Why fight mother nature ?

The same argument could be made for anywhere in this country. We have earthquakes so why build in the west when it can be levelled at any point in time? Tornadoes in the middle...it can be levelled at any point in time.
Hurricanes in the east...same thing. In Washington and Hawaii we have volcanoes. Why build anywhere in this country when mother nature can come wipe us out?
New Orleans could be made safer if our government wanted to make it safer. They could start with putting up a proper levee. Of course that cannot be done because it would cost more money up front rather than more money when another hurricane of that velocity hits in another 200 years.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 6:03:04 AM

Irishknight

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In the middle of the country, we have developed a thing that we use to attract tornadoes kind of like a lightning rod. We call the "house trailers."

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 6:57:10 AM

cjan

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quote:

The Port of New Orleans handles about 84 million short tons of cargo a year. The Port of South Louisiana, based in the New Orleans suburb of LaPlace, handles 199 million short tons. The two combined form the largest port system in the world by bulk tonnage, and the world's fourth largest by annual volume handled. For its part, the Port of New Orleans refers to itself as being "at the center of the world’s busiest port complex."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_New_Orleans

Amsterdam is even more vulnerable to flooding than New Orleans. They have learned to deal with their vulnerability and their system of levees and dykes have already paid for themselves in property, infrustructure and crops saved, to say nothing of the saving of lives.

quote:

The Dutch system is based on probability. Han Jkvrijling says the country is protected for everything except a storm that would come once in 10,000 years. By contrast, New Orleans is protected to a level of flooding once in 30 years. Meaning, every 30 years a storm would come along that could flood the city. In his mind, protecting New Orleans is a matter of political will and money.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-10/2005-10-04-voa38.cfm

The "reason" to rebuild New Orleans, all other considerations aside, is economic. It would be cheaper to rebuild and build a proper flood control system than to abandon it and divert it's port traffic to other Gulf ports. Besides, you can't move the Mississippi River. It's a major reason for NOLA's being where it is. Btw, the conomic pragmatism I refer to isn't for the benefit of NO alone. The economic benefits are shared by all those served by the Mississippi and the whole nation by keeping the cost of goods down by efficient shipping and distribution means.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 7:01:58 AM

Irishknight

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cjan, the argument can easily be made that by shifting the operation just a few miles, the city would be safer and people would still be served by the port.
I do like the idea of building proper dikes and levees to protect the city but who is going to do it? When money is sent down there to do the work it gets shifted to BS projects instead of what it is supposed to do. Apparently, the government at the city, state and federal level have all shown their inability to ensure that these structures are built safely and maintained adequately.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 7:05:57 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

When money is sent down there to do the work it gets shifted to BS projects instead of what it is supposed to do. Apparently, the government at the city, state and federal level have all shown their inability to ensure that these structures are built safely and maintained adequately.

Throwing a big pile of taxpayer's money at a problem seems to have that effect.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/9/2008 7:06:18 AM >

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 7:22:18 AM

cjan

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IrishKnight, I'd have to see the figures of the cost to "shift the operation a few miles" to be able to make any reasonable judgement. Off hand, without such figures for comparison, I would think building an efficient system for flood control, as the Dutch have done, and using existing facilities would be more economical.

As for corruption and diverted funds, that is not an insurmountable problem. For example, group of experts in their fields of engineering, planning and construction could be formed, rules of transparancy for bidding and accounting could be established and people held accountable by another group of inspectors, accountants and planners. It's a matter of will, the rest is details that can be transparently worked out.

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"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 7:31:44 AM

MusicalBoredom

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Well for one (as has been stated) the Mississippi River needs a port to the Gulf. To the best of my knowledge, the Mississippi river does not run though Houston. The river is one of the major transportation methods cutting through the middle of the US. The locks that keep the river flowing if diverted would terminate the river through a swamp. A swamp isn't a transportation route.

In terms of being a city, why don't we shut down half of California as well since wildfire and earthquakes cause rebuilding on a constant basis. When a city the size of New Orleans is hit by a major disaster the problem is what to do with the low income households. The total population of all of the counties affected in Mississippi (including areas 100 miles north of the gulf) was only 400,000 and resulted in 97,000 people needing assistance in rebuilding. The population in the New Orleans area alone (those directly on the coast) at the time of Katrina was 524,000. The bulk of that population was in urban areas. When an urban area is hit by a disaster those that need the greatest help are the ones that rented and lived below the poverty level.

Think of when New York city is hit my a major hurricane. How would you evacuate 7 million people? Where would they go? Those that had jobs, savings, family, second homes, cars would find ways of moving on. What about the people that live pay check to pay check? They couldn't afford to stay in a hotel. They would have no insurance covering their loss. They would simply be out of luck.

It is so easy to sit back somewhere and make two sentence "solutions" to major problems and pronounce easy arm-chair judgments. We take an idea from some extreme news source (from the left or right) and repeat it over and over as though it were some truth or real solution. It's actually neither -- not a truth nor a solution.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 7:36:38 AM

MusicalBoredom

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As far as misuse of funds goes, it's a crime and needs to be punished as such. I need to point out that people came from all over the world to help in rebuilding the coast (MS, LA and AL). Most of those people did a great job. Some inflated their rates since the need was so great. Some were guilty of out right fraud. Greed and corruption is a humanity problem and not limited to residents on one state.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 7:42:14 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

Well for one (as has been stated) the Mississippi River needs a port to the Gulf. To the best of my knowledge, the Mississippi river does not run though Houston. The river is one of the major transportation methods cutting through the middle of the US. The locks that keep the river flowing if diverted would terminate the river through a swamp. A swamp isn't a transportation route.

Where are the working locks on the lower Mississippi river now?

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 8:19:09 AM

MusicalBoredom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

Well for one (as has been stated) the Mississippi River needs a port to the Gulf. To the best of my knowledge, the Mississippi river does not run though Houston. The river is one of the major transportation methods cutting through the middle of the US. The locks that keep the river flowing if diverted would terminate the river through a swamp. A swamp isn't a transportation route.

Where are the working locks on the lower Mississippi river now?

Donaldsonville. They are what I think is called diversionary locks. This area has a system of controls set up to keep the Mississippi from free flowing the to the Atchafalaya river and basin. If that happened then the river would bypass New Orleans and Baton Rouge and become part of the swamp and wetlands making it non-navigable to the gulf.

< Message edited by MusicalBoredom -- 6/9/2008 8:35:20 AM >

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