RE: Planning for BDSM couples

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OscarHargraves -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 8:18:13 PM)
Having dealt with both of my parents dying only seven weeks apart, I would like to submit that the one thing that really helped me was that they had a Living Will and a Living Trust. Thanks to their pre-planning I had none of the problems that were discussed here. I simply went to the lawyer's office, signed several papers and he did the rest. I was immediately empowered to act on their behalf. I had access to the checkbook, the house, the funds, the property and I had total control to make medical decisions for them. There was also NO PROBATE and no probate court. In two hours things were legally settled and I was able to do what needed to be done. I agree with Pinky on this one. It is well worth your time and money to get a good Estate Attorney and have these documents drawn up. You can do your reesearch with your browser and decide what you want and how you want it done, but then hire a specialist and get it done right. This is especially true if you have any real estate or major assets to deal with. If you're in the ABQ area I can sure recommend a great lawyer. If not then do that research and find someone who will make sure your last wishes are carried out. This is true no matter who you are or what kind of a relationship you are in.

FLButtSlut -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/2/2005 4:46:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre Abviously for BDSM relationships that are intended as "life partnership" these issues exist - for others none of this is an issue. OBVIOUSLY this is intended for those who are seeking "life partnership" not a domestic servant, however, the issues of financial control are very important in either case when one partner is looking to take/give financial control to the other. Your situation with an LLC is quite different, and I would hazard to guess that your "girls" names are not listed as partners in that company, rathat that you are bequesting it to them in your will which is quite different. As I have mentioned before, creating a dummy corporation in a relationship is not advisable nor would it be likely to find an attorney who would create such a document. Having an LLC regarding your intellectual property is quite different than creating one for the purpose of controlling your "girls" income. It would be unethical for any attorney to create such a document without first proving that the person giving up financial control in such a way was incompetent.

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/2/2005 5:06:24 AM)
quote: I solved this via a corporation. Most of the income generating assets in my house (mostly intellectual property) reside in an LLC and the LLC passes to my girls upon my death. Soulhuntre With all due respect Sir, in every state insofar as i am aware, a person who dies without a will is treated as leaving his property -- all types -- to his children, to be divided equally amoung them, when that person has no spouse. However, if the property includes real estate or certain other circumstances apply, the estate must be probated. This generally includes shares in a corporation or LLC. Probate can be long and expensive if there is no will appointing an executor. In some jurisdictions, such as mine, a family member no matter how old will be disqualified as the executor of an estate from which they will benefit, unless a legally effective will names that family member as executor. Executors appointed by the Probate Court are not motivated to save the estate money or end the process quickly. Finally, there are certain undesirable tax consequences to using an LLC, and it has an expiration date...which in most states cannot be automatically set to evergreen. IMO, there are rare circumstances where a LLC is the desirable vehicle. Everything i have said here is general advice, and no one can rely on it to guide them in drawing up legal documents for themselves. In sub4hire's post, we see examples of Advanced Directives which the hospital ignored; in Oscar Hargraeves we see exmples of ones that were respected. i'd be willing to bet the difference was the effective ones were drawn up by a lawyer, hired for the purpose. As i have said before "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". The planning FlButtSlut and i have tried to prompt people to consider will govern aspects of the lives of members which i would think are critical to them. candystripper

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/2/2005 5:21:53 AM)
quote: It would be unethical for any attorney to create such a document without first proving that the person giving up financial control in such a way was incompetent. FlButtSlut This is a recurring theme, and one area in which i HAVE been asked to draw up documents for a fee; how to effectuate any aspect of slavery. Basically, how to evade the 13h Amendment. One chatter in TheLobby used to come in saying that the Dom or Master could achieve this with a guardianship proceeding, with the subbie or slave feigning incompetence. No lawyer would touch such a request; no psychiatrist would; no court would. The standard for obtaining guardianship of another adult is extremely high; and when application is made, some courts do not appoint the proposed guardian in the application -- so a unmarried, live-in boyfriend can pretty much forget ever obtaining guardian status of his subbie or slave. Others have asked me if a legal manner existed to obtain control over all the subbie's property and earnings. Well, adults are free to give their property to whomever they wish; sometimes a lawyer would be necessary if a recorded title was involved, and in cases where it was household furnishings, etc., it would be wise to memorialise the gift so there is no "he said/she said" debate. As to earnings, however, no, i cannot think of any legal means by which a Dom or Master could place a subbie or slave under a legally binding obligation to fork over her paycheck to Him. Furthermore, as she will be taxed on her earnings, absorbing 100% of them leaves the slave or subbie unable to pay; a very undesirable situation. This illustrates FlButtSlut's point; people who become financially entangled, despite their intentions to have a lifetime commitment or not, need the advice of an attorney to sort through the various issues and eventualities or their end result may be highly unsatisfactory. candystripper

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/2/2005 5:34:52 AM)
quote: One thing that needs to be added is Power of Attorney. This is important for any couple whether it's a married het couple, gay couples, poly groups or any other flavour of relationship. Lacking power of attorney can make things extremely difficult for the family members left behind if they cannot deal with finances, access funds or make care decisions for someone who is alive but unable to make decisions for themselves. It's also important to remember that non-immediate family members can throw everything into a tailspin despite your best planning. Wills can be contested, Powers of Attorney challenged, etc. If one is in any kind of non-traditional relationship (particularly a poly one) the lines become blurred and it can be difficult to determine who has legal right to act on behalf of someone who is incapacitated or who is entitled to the estate when someone dies. MsIncognito i believe You are mistaken, Ma'am. A Power of Attorney is a document that cedes certain powers and rights (and obligations) from one adult to another. For example, if i represent someone in a dispute with the IRS, a limited POA is necessary; elsewise the government will not discuss a 3rd party's taxes with me. A POA is sometimes used as an alternative to guardianship. Very generally, a POA can be made by a knowing, willing and able adult. Once Alzheimer's or some other impediment to that standard has arisen, a guardianship must be sought from the courts. Yes, a slave or subbie could make a POA, granting some or all of her rights and obligations to her Dom. However, i cannot imagine a lawyer agreeing to draw up such a document unless the woman was also represented by an attorney. Such a POA would be revokable and generally terminate at a date certain. It would complicate the parties' lives; cost a bundle; and accomplish nothing. Again, this is general information, not intended for any specific individual to rely upon. candystripper

MsIncognito -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/2/2005 6:21:09 AM)
I'm not a lawyer but perhaps it's a difference between US and Canadian law. In Canada Power of Attorney is important. I've known of situations where couples with joint assets have encountered great difficulty in handling financial affairs when one partner becomes incapacitated. They were quite shocked to find out that they now required the incapacitated spouses signature to deal with certain issues (bank accounts, investments, property, etc) and weren't able to get it for obvious reasons. They then had to go through the courts to have themselves appointed legal guardian so they could deal with all these things. That can take months and leave a family in quite dire straights in the meantime. Having a power of attorney beforehand would have avoided a lot of stress and difficulty for families who were already in crisis. quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper i believe You are mistaken, Ma'am. A Power of Attorney is a document that cedes certain powers and rights (and obligations) from one adult to another. For example, if i represent someone in a dispute with the IRS, a limited POA is necessary; elsewise the government will not discuss a 3rd party's taxes with me. Edited to add: I'm not talking about using a POA as a means to give a Dom control over his sub while she is still of sound mind and body. I'm talking about the use of a POA in real life situations - someone suffering a heart attack, being in a car accident, etc and being unable to take care of their own affairs. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone use the law to support and legitimize their fantasies - I'm talking about using the law as it's intended to protect the people we love in the case of death or incapacitation. I also doubt any lawyer would draw up such a document.

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/2/2005 7:02:03 AM)
quote: I'm not a lawyer but perhaps it's a difference between US and Canadian law. In Canada Power of Attorney is important. I've known of situations where couples with joint assets have encountered great difficulty in handling financial affairs when one partner becomes incapacitated. They were quite shocked to find out that they now required the incapacitated spouses signature to deal with certain issues (bank accounts, investments, property, etc) and weren't able to get it for obvious reasons. They then had to go through the courts to have themselves appointed legal guardian so they could deal with all these things. That can take months and leave a family in quite dire straights in the meantime. Having a power of attorney beforehand would have avoided a lot of stress and difficulty for families who were already in crisis. quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper i believe You are mistaken, Ma'am. A Power of Attorney is a document that cedes certain powers and rights (and obligations) from one adult to another. For example, if i represent someone in a dispute with the IRS, a limited POA is necessary; elsewise the government will not discuss a 3rd party's taxes with me. Edited to add: I'm not talking about using a POA as a means to give a Dom control over his sub while she is still of sound mind and body. I'm talking about the use of a POA in real life situations - someone suffering a heart attack, being in a car accident, etc and being unable to take care of their own affairs. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone use the law to support and legitimize their fantasies - I'm talking about using the law as it's intended to protect the people we love in the case of death or incapacitation. I also doubt any lawyer would draw up such a document. < Message edited by MsIncognito Strange as it may seem, even in my International and Foreign Tax class, i was never taught any rudiment of Canadian law. i have no idea how a POA would be used/drawn up/etc. in Canada; and general advice about the US is not to be relied upon, as each state treats matters differently to some degree. i know Your original post was not one of the goofy requests i have received before in which a Man seeks "to enslave" His subbie or slave...i added my commentary on that topic because, as i have said, it is one recurring matter i am offered a fee to produce. You are correct; it is an attempt to turn a fantasy into a legal matter....and it is not possible here. candystripper

Soulhuntre -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/2/2005 8:36:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut OBVIOUSLY this is intended for those who are seeking "life partnership" not a domestic servant, however, the issues of financial control are very important in either case when one partner is looking to take/give financial control to the other. I agree. My point was simply to interject the reality that not all BDSM relationships are, or have any intention of being, intimate in that way. quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut Your situation with an LLC is quite different, and I would hazard to guess that your "girls" names are not listed as partners in that company, rathat that you are bequesting it to them in your will which is quite different. You would be incorrect, though it isn't a bad guess. One of the great things about LLC's is the flexability afforded in their rules of operation and their ability to create their own structure this way. They are much, much more attractive than a "S" corporation for this purpose and obviously a "C" corp would be even more rigid. This is one of the reasons LLC's are great vehicles for joint ownership of somehting like an aircraft for example. You can put all the stuff about sharing maintenance expenses and so on right into the structure of the corporation and it's profit / expense distribution structure for example. In this particular case the LLC specifies the division of control between myself and several others. In the event of my mental incapacitation or death the amount of control given to my girls dramatically increases to fill the void. quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut As I have mentioned before, creating a dummy corporation in a relationship is not advisable nor would it be likely to find an attorney who would create such a document. Obviously a "dummy" corporation would have been pointless... but a real live functioning one seems to be doing rather well in this capacity. I needed to have a primary or base corporation for my enterprises in any case... it was convenient to combine that need with the house needs. quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut Having an LLC regarding your intellectual property is quite different than creating one for the purpose of controlling your "girls" income. I don't believe I indicated that that was my purpose - though for long periods of time it has effectively done exactly since often both of them do not have outside work. quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut It would be unethical for any attorney to create such a document without first proving that the person giving up financial control in such a way was incompetent. I am unsure wha "financial control" you are speaking of. Unless your trying to discuss this as an alternative to somehting like a power of attorney or somesuch? It isn't anythign liekt hat, nor is it intended to be. But then even an POA isn't a particularly strong instrument for giving away "financial control" in this situation. In this age of electronic banking and so on it is just as effective in many cases to have actual, as opposed to legal, control of their finances. quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper With all due respect Sir, in every state insofar as i am aware, a person who dies without a will is treated as leaving his property -- all types -- to his children, to be divided equally amoung them, when that person has no spouse. YOu are correct as far as I know. quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper However, if the property includes real estate or certain other circumstances apply, the estate must be probated. This generally includes shares in a corporation or LLC. Yes, it generally does. I don't recall saying I had no will at all, simply that I solved the rather sticky problem of persistance of assets via the LLC rather than the will. Unlike other corporation types the level of control one has in a LLC for decision making purposes is not necessarily deeply tied to the share distribution - it is one of the nice things about the structure. Unless the LLC itself "knew" how to handle (via its agreement) the transfer of power things would have gotten messy, will or none. So, if I were to die tomorrow my assets would be divided between the girls via the will. However those assets would be fairly minimal - everything I have that is of great value is already owned by the LLC itself. The rest is comparatively minor. quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Finally, there are certain undesirable tax consequences to using an LLC, and it has an expiration date...which in most states cannot be automatically set to evergreen. IMO, there are rare circumstances where a LLC is the desirable vehicle. Obviously everyone needs to look into things on their own. I certainly have no intention of dispensing legal or financial advice. The vehicle suited my needs because I already needed one. I would not reccomend it as the primary asset transfer vehicle for people who did not already need to have one anyway :) quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper As i have said before "a little knowlede is a dangerous thing". A silly saying in my mind. It is only true if the people who have it don't realize it is only a little knowledge of a complex topic. Often, however, a "little knowledge" of exen a complex topic can be incredibly valuable. Snakes for example are a huge and complex topic. However the little bit of knowledge contained in "don't get bit by snakes that rattle" is while admittedly small and incomplete still valuable :) The end result of this threat is pretty simple... "You should think of what will happen if you die or are seriously hurt, and then go talk to a good lawyer about it".

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/2/2005 9:51:57 AM)
quote: One of the great things about LLC's is the flexability afforded in their rules of operation and their ability to create their own structure this way. They are much, much more attractive than a "S" corporation for this purpose and obviously a "C" corp would be even more rigid. ]This is one of the reasons LLC's are great vehicles for joint ownership of somehting like an aircraft for example. You can put all the stuff about sharing maintenance expenses and so on right into the structure of the corporation and it's profit / expense distribution structure for example. In this particular case the LLC specifies the division of control between myself and several others. In the event of my mental incapacitation or death the amount of control given to my girls dramatically increases to fill the void. Soulhuntre Sir, again i respectfully disagree. i have done planning for family businesses, and distribution of profits/assets/liabilities/etc. is not a problem. It can be accomplished with different series of shares -- some controlling, some not -- and by a shareholder agreement which ripens upon the death or disability of any controlling shareholder. Partnership agreements may also be used to design specific aspects of control and the distribution of assets and profits (and liabilities) but such a structure is more expensive to plan due largely to the IRS Code. i am not trying to persuade You that You need any additional planning or legal services; what i am trying to do is demonstrate the axom in planning that a LLC is rarely the vehicle of choice. candystripper

windchymes -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/3/2005 3:48:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear That pretty much covers things I think. Most of our closest friends list their religion at Hospitals etc as pagan and list me as their priest so I never have any issues in visiting in and out of visiting hours. LOL....I'm trying to imagine how you give them "Last Rites"![:D] And hey, where'd you get that holy water??? windchymes

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/3/2005 6:11:02 PM)
quote: LOL....I'm trying to imagine how you give them "Last Rites"! And hey, where'd you get that holy water??? windchymes Silly; Last Rites are performed with oil. You need to bone up on your horror movies, LOL. candystripper

MistressYlwa -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/4/2005 5:52:03 AM)
I can only speak from my experience. My partner's inheritance was controlled by a sibling. The estate owned our home. He died without my having a power of attorney or leaving a will. He asked the family to give me our home before he died and, fortunately, they agreed, as I had not worked and took care of him full time the last 5 years of his life. However there was no savings due to medical expenses. At the time of his death I was left with a home, no job, and no income. I was given no financial support from the estate, while I looked for work. It was only because of my father that I was able to pay expenses while looking for work. I am not sure what could have been done, prior to his death, that would have helped me in this situation. But would hate for anyone to find themselves alone and unprotected, should a partner die. This topic has given me some idea of some things that I can do to protect myself and I think it is a subject worth discuss. Irregardless of the intent of its origin. Mistress Ylwa You see what power is - holding someone elses fear in your hand and showing it to them! - Amy Tan

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/4/2005 7:28:10 AM)
quote: I am not sure what could have been done, prior to his death, that would have helped me in this situation. But would hate for anyone to find themselves alone and unprotected, should a partner die. This topic has given me some idea of some things that I can do to protect myself and I think it is a subject worth discuss. Irregardless of the intent of its origin. Mistress Ylwa Ma'am; the PRIMARY intent of the thread is to raise awareness amoung BDSM'ers about legal issues which may be attended to with a modest fee NOW...and which left unattended, can create some very difficult, unforeseen circumstances. The discussion of the web site -- and no decision has yet been made to go forward with that due to FLButtSlut's and my circumstances -- is a poor second. i am pleased You were able to benefit from the thread. candystripper

sub4hire -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/4/2005 7:56:54 AM)
quote: Others have asked me if a legal manner existed to obtain control over all the subbie's property and earnings. Well, adults are free to give their property to whomever they wish; sometimes a lawyer would be necessary if a recorded title was involved, and in cases where it was household furnishings, etc., it would be wise to memorialise the gift so there is no "he said/she said" debate. Actually when my mother died she had it written up by an attorney. The hospital essentially said we put her on life support so you could decide. Well, duh she already signed all of the papers herself. To take it a step further even. My sister was married to a paranoid schizophrenic when she passed. She wanted to be cremated...and put me in charge of all of her affairs. I got to know the cemetary people quite well over the ordeal with my mother and my father shutting down. So, I knew I was going to have problems since she had a husband. Anyway, it came down to...no matter what she signs. No matter what is notarized it doesn' t matter. When her heart stops beating it will be him in charge. So, what we had to do is the last time I took her out of the hospital which was ten days before she passed. She had to start her own funeral. Sign it and have it notarized in front of the cemetary director. That was the only way it could not be reversed. Any advance directives...any living trusts could all be reversed. The reason this was an issue is because my brother in law kept telling her he was going to bury her. She wanted her ashes spread. Anyway, to know the flaws in the legal system take a look at the Terri Shiavo case. We've all heard about it. But really take some time to look at it. The problems family who have no clue can cause for a person. Her family trashed her husband's reputation because they weren't close enough to her to know what her last wishes were. How great is that?

Soulhuntre -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/4/2005 8:40:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Sir, again i respectfully disagree. i have done planning for family businesses, and distribution of profits/assets/liabilities/etc. is not a problem. It can be accomplished with different series of shares -- some controlling, some not -- and by a shareholder agreement which ripens upon the death or disability of any controlling shareholder. You're certainly welcome to disagree. This is as many other things a matter of preferance. Msot goals can be legally achieved in a wide variety of mannes. quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper i am not trying to persuade You that You need any additional planning or legal services; what i am trying to do is demonstrate the axom in planning that a LLC is rarely the vehicle of choice. I believe I already mentioned that :)

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/5/2005 4:02:32 PM)
quote: Anyway, to know the flaws in the legal system take a look at the Terri Shiavo case. We've all heard about it. But really take some time to look at it. The problems family who have no clue can cause for a person. Her family trashed her husband's reputation because they weren't close enough to her to know what her last wishes were. How great is that? sub4hire O i know...the case tailor-made to break your heart. There was another, in the '70's i think, in which the parents wanted a comatose girl removed from life support and the nursing home refused. Cannot recall the case name; too lazy to search atm. If the spirit moves me, i will look for it tomorrow, but by then someone else will probably have found it. i am so sorry for the angst you've had to go through -- and the losses you have suffered. i cannot understand why the Advanced Directives and Living Wills were ineffectual for your family. Gawd; adding such distress at a time of greatest grief -- that is what the documents are designed to avoid. candystripper

LadiesBladewing -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/5/2005 5:41:27 PM)
For most people, a living will, advance directives, and a living trust will be more than sufficient to take care of the people in your life. There will -always- be horror stories out there, but doing -something- now, even if it MIGHT, in some freak circumstance, not work is exceedingly better than doing NOTHING, and being -assured- that your wishes and plans for your family of choice won't mean beans. Do -something-... Lady Zephyr

candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/6/2005 6:43:16 AM)
quote: For most people, a living will, advance directives, and a living trust will be more than sufficient to take care of the people in your life. There will -always- be horror stories out there, but doing -something- now, even if it MIGHT, in some freak circumstance, not work is exceedingly better than doing NOTHING, and being -assured- that your wishes and plans for your family of choice won't mean beans. Do -something-... Lady Zephyr Very true Dr Ma'am. candystripper

sub4hire -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/7/2005 4:33:11 PM)
Got this in e-mail today. My New Living Will Form I, __________________, being of sound mind and body, do not wish to be kept alive indefinitely by artificial means. Under no circumstances should my fate be put in the hands of peckerwood politicians who couldn't pass ninth-grade biology if their lives depended on it. If a reasonable amount of time passes and I fail to sit up and ask for: (please initial all that apply) _________ a martini, _________ a glass of wine, _________ a margarita, _________ a beer, _________ a steak, _________ the remote control, _________ a bowl of ice cream, _________ a Kahlua on the rocks, _________ sex, _________ my credit card, _________ a computer to check my email, it should be presumed that I won't ever get better. When such a determination is reached, I hereby instruct my appointed person and attending physicians to pull the plug, reel in the tubes and call it a day. Under no circumstances shall the members of the Legislature enact a special law to keep me on life-support machinery. It is my wish that these boneheads mind their own damn business, and pay attention instead to the future of the millions of Americans who aren't in a permanent coma. Signature:___________________________ Date: ___________________________

TimberBeast -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/7/2005 6:58:43 PM)
[A detail I've not seen addressed here (and as we all know, the devil is in the details). -> Making your wishes known verbally to your caretaker(s) <-... and those whom might impede them. Not so long ago I had a rather intense and emotionally charged discussion with my doctor, in the presence of my wife, in which I made it very explicitly crystal clear I was not under any circumstances period end of discussion to be artifically or mechanically (or otherwise non naturally) kept alive, and asked him to sign a para to this effect on my LW. I do hope that was sufficient to convey to him how I felt. Also I have contacted each of my close friends and conveyed the same message, face to face, eyeball to eyeball, mano y mano... and conveyed the same message. What this does is arrays my wife with a small Army of witnesses consisting of persons known by and to me to appear before any judicial or legislative body to contest any efforts to keep this wore out carcass 'alive' (by doctoral interpretation) for ten years so some medical facility can soak up a tidy sum at the expense of the taxpayer and my medical insurance provider. Part of that 1,000% thing. TB

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