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Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 2:45:49 PM

hammernhoney

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I know this sounds stupid to post this here but I need some help...A lot of older folks around here have air that need recondition but is there a place to add new coolent..all help appreciated...bounty

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 2:49:48 PM

Irishknight

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I had to look to see what area you were in. We have a similar problem here. The AC repair guys charge through the nose to recharge the systems.

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 2:55:24 PM

DomAviator

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Yes there is a place to add refigerant in any system. Doing so requires specialized training and a set of manifold gauges. If you hook to the wrong port, ie if you try to charge from the high side, it will explode and blind you as your eyes and face will instantly freeze solid and slough off when they thaw. (Ditto for fingers or any other exposed skin) If it is a central air / or window air system that uses R-12, R-22, R-407A etc you need a certification from the EPA to buy the refrigerant - which can cost hundreds of dollars per pound. If it is a modern car airconditioning system using R-134 you can top it off with a recharge kit from walmart relatively safely as you cant hook to the wrong port since they are color coded and different sized. Tinkering with anything other than an R-134 car air conditionioning system without being qualified is an invitation to disaster. (Also topping off the Freon wont help as its a sealed system, if the freon is low it means there was a leak so you need to find and fix the leak, draw a vacuum to remove moisture from the system and then recharge.... Youre looking at $600 to $1000 worth of tools

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 6/9/2008 2:56:17 PM >

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 2:58:59 PM

hammernhoney

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Yes there is a place to add refigerant in any system. Doing so requires specialized training and a set of manifold gauges. If you hook to the wrong port, ie if you try to charge from the high side, it will explode and blind you as your eyes and face will instantly freeze solid and slough off when they thaw. (Ditto for fingers or any other exposed skin) If it is a central air / or window air system that uses R-12, R-22, R-407A etc you need a certification from the EPA to buy the refrigerant - which can cost hundreds of dollars per pound. If it is a modern car airconditioning system using R-134 you can top it off with a recharge kit from walmart relatively safely as you cant hook to the wrong port since they are color coded and different sized. Tinkering with anything other than an R-134 car air conditionioning system without being qualified is an invitation to disaster. (Also topping off the Freon wont help as its a sealed system, if the freon is low it means there was a leak so you need to find and fix the leak, draw a vacuum to remove moisture from the system and then recharge.... Youre looking at $600 to $1000 worth of tools

TY for the info, I keep getting calls from folks that can't afford new window units and I was wanting to help but looks like I am up the creek without the paddle...bounty

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 3:01:13 PM

hammernhoney

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I had to look to see what area you were in. We have a similar problem here. The AC repair guys charge through the nose to recharge the systems.

Yeah same here,IT looks like the goverment would help the seniors with air, but I guess that is out of the realm of help..ty for your info...

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 3:07:40 PM

DomAviator

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Your welcome. In defense of the air conditioning guys ( and I am not one of them I just have an aircraft mechanics license and the "environmental control systems" was part of the training - aircraft mechanics do the systems on airplanes not ac guys) a big part of the cost is the refrigerant itself. These days anything other than 134 costs out the ass!!!! Manufacture of R-12 was outlawed years ago and the only sources left are new old stock of virgin refrigerant that gets bought up at a premium by big players like airlines, food processing plants, etc and recycled shit that is still super expensive. So they arent ripping people off as much as putting a very expensive commodity into the system.

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 3:10:40 PM

Vendaval

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Hi Bounty,

Have you checked with the local utility company? PG&E out here will assist customers with energy saving repairs and finding more efficient appliances. You could also call the local senior center or AARP office for information.

Hope this helps,

Vendaval

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 3:11:28 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Your welcome. In defense of the air conditioning guys ( and I am not one of them I just have an aircraft mechanics license and the "environmental control systems" was part of the training - aircraft mechanics do the systems on airplanes not ac guys) a big part of the cost is the refrigerant itself. These days anything other than 134 costs out the ass!!!! Manufacture of R-12 was outlawed years ago and the only sources left are new old stock of virgin refrigerant that gets bought up at a premium by big players like airlines, food processing plants, etc and recycled shit that is still super expensive. So they arent ripping people off as much as putting a very expensive commodity into the system.

Say there, DA, there used to be a booming business in folks driving to Tijuana to get their R-12 systems worked on (or even smuggling it back across the border.) Anything like that in TX?

thornhappy

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 3:20:29 PM

TheGorenSociety

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I have worked in a/c fields as part of support contracts the cost of coolant has forced many a/c companies out of business.That and rising liability cost.Here in Florida workman's comp has done more to close most trades businesses over the last few years, then the economy. Repairing a/c leaks is not easy today. The most likely leak is in one of the coils and is cost prohibtive to fix. That is why window units are known as throw aways.Sadly as EPA contines to restrict more and more coolants it will force most of cheaper units to the landfill. RegardsGMR

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 3:25:12 PM

TheGorenSociety

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Just be careful of that type of thing. They in Mexico also fill your system with amonia mixed in, if you have a leak in your car system, it may leak in your car and kill you dead.

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 3:30:31 PM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Say there, DA, there used to be a booming business in folks driving to Tijuana to get their R-12 systems worked on (or even smuggling it back across the border.) Anything like that in TX?

thornhappy

Doubtful. Once the ban went international the market on it kind of dried up. I mean you can still get R-12 without a certification, hell you can buy it on eBay but if if you get caught with it there is a huge fine. However, a 30 pound tank of R-12 is running around $400 now IF you can get it. Even the little "consumer cans" are priced insane... This Ebay link has 4 little cans and its up to $86 already

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/R12-FREON-DUPONT-SERCON-4-MINT-CANS-R-12-GET-IT-NOW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46094QQihZ007QQitemZ170226818396QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

I dont do much with my air conditioner even though I have the certificate and tools because I dont have a real recovery system etc... (Like when I work on the system in this corvette I have that uses R-12 that no shop will touch I will evacuate into an empty BBQ propane tank that I sit in a supercooled mix of brine with dry ice because I dont fuck with it often enough to invest thousands in a certified recovery system.) The manifold gauges, vacuum pump, leak detector, multimeter, oxyacetylene torch, specialty hand tools etc were expensive enough...

Its one of those things Im qualified to do, and know how to do, but generally dont do. Im not a "working aircraft mechanic" I just got the license so I could sign off my own 100 hour inspections and tinker with my own stuff and whatnot and essentially not let the A&P have me by the balls... So, I'm no master air conditioning mechanic just an A&P ticket holder who had environmental controls in his airframe classes. Thus, when my central air system needs work I call Trane, just because Id rather not fuck up and blind myself... There is a lot of freon in that system and if I blew it I could be in a world of hurt.

Most of the freon I have on hand is orphan tanks I bought in auctions, flea markets etc that the people didnt know the value of... I dont think Mexico is a good source anymore since the ban went intl. Unless they are recovering it out of old cars...

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 4:13:22 PM

Termyn8or

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A thirty pound jug of R12 is ALOT more than $400 around here.

If we are talking window units though, they will most likely be R 22.

T

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 4:19:37 PM

Irishknight

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I wasn't actually dissing the AC guys. I have some of hose tools and know why they charge what they do. However, when one guy can do the work for 200 and the other starts his bid at 400, it makes ya wonder.

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 5:54:44 PM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

A thirty pound jug of R12 is ALOT more than $400 around here.

If we are talking window units though, they will most likely be R 22.

T

Term, well thats not virgin thats recovered so its 1/2% water, oil, and shit... Not clean enough for an aircraft but good enough for my Vette AC (I REFUSE to "upgrade" to 134 and if it wasnt a such a serious federal crime I might even point out how much better even a modern car system cools if you evacuate out (or vent to the atmosphere LOL) the ecofriendly R-134 shit and fill with R-12. But nobody would ever do that right ;) Cause that would be wrong, and illegal, and bad for the planet, and...

However yes your right window air conditioners will likely be R-22 which is still EPA restricted sale. But depending on the age they could be 12, 22, 114, 123, 407, 500, 502...

Ya know I remember the good old days when R-12 cost pennies a pound and we would chill beer with it in the hangar by inverting the tank and tapping it as a liquid or how great it was for freezing a leaking copper pipe etc... ( Vent freon on it to kill the water flow then resweat the joint) Or how if you lost a key you could freeze a padlock and whack it with a hammer to shatter it.... Now its a $25,000 fine to vent it to atmospheric... Fucking environmental cases...

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 6:21:33 PM

TheHeretic

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       Bounty, this might sound stupid, but it is truly amazing how many people with broken" window units have simply neglected to clean the damn filters. Some of the late models, like my 5 year old Goldstar out in the garage, make it hard to find, perhaps in the hope you'll just buy another unit when it quits working

    Many places offer 'cooling centers' during hot spells, and I consider that a fine use of my tax dollars.

    Another thing to consider is energy use. Given what it costs to run an air conditioner, they might wind up spending less if they bought a new, more efficient one anyway.

      Edit to add: I'm strictly talking about window units. I don't know a damn thing about central air systems.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 6/9/2008 6:26:11 PM >

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 6:23:11 PM

kittinSol

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There's an article in Wired magazine this month... I recommend it.

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 7:42:49 PM

pahunkboy

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air conditioners today are cheap- cheaper then some fans. $88, $68. new ones are lighter, quieter and more efficient. it is worth noting that the new fancy tvs out - use almost as much power as a 5000 btu ac!!

i personally would not try the refill.

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/9/2008 11:17:32 PM

Hippiekinkster

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http://www.mrslim.com/Products/Category.asp?ProductCategoryID=24

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/10/2008 12:54:45 AM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I wasn't actually dissing the AC guys. I have some of hose tools and know why they charge what they do. However, when one guy can do the work for 200 and the other starts his bid at 400, it makes ya wonder.

My guess, the $400 guy is gonna do it right and replace the appropriate refrigerant and the $200 guy is either gonna use recovered shit he evacuated out of old refrigerators and junkyard cars etc, OR he is gonna evacuate out your remaining R-12 or R-22 (to sell on Ebay and make up the other $200) and then refill you with R-134. You can make a system run on R-134 BUT you will lose 5 - 10 degrees of cooling capacity. Now a real cocksucker would, as Gor noted, refill you with anhydrous ammonia which will kill you if it ever leaks... Anhydrous Ammonia works, I mean its used in a lot of aircraft ground support equipment to prechill aircraft not running or on the APU, but thats an open air application not a confined space and if it blows away from an environmental ground cart oh well, its not the worst vapor wafting across the tarmac...

In case anyone tries to fuck around with an airconditioner or refrigerator though a word of advice - if you heat it, ANY freon will kill you. If you "burn" freon it creates phosgene, which the Germans used as a chemical agent in WW1. Something to think about before ya try to braze that leak or pinhole without evacuating the refrigerant out first...

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RE: Air conditioners - 6/10/2008 6:20:43 AM

Irishknight

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Actually, the only difference is that the 400 dollar guy has to drive 30 more total miles. He won't even guaranty his work at that price. His references are iffy at best. The 200 dollar guy actually is related to the guy who used to own my land and has fantastic references from everyone around.
Youhave described theguys who installed my cooling system in Iowa though.

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