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Consent - 6/9/2008 9:59:23 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		When it comes to WIITWD the very foundation that we
stand upon here is consent. That is one thing that we should ALL be able to agree upon. For without at least that...without consent...we
have nothing.

Without consent the Dominant becomes the abuser and the
submissive becomes the abused.

Without consent the ethical sadist becomes a psychopath and the masochist becomes a victim.

Without consent "D" types become rapists and "s" types become the raped.

Without consent Poly becomes deceitful cheating.

Without consent we are dishonorable at best and criminal at worst.

Consent is the ONE thing that we should ALL be in agreement of....and NONE of us should ever tolerate anything less.


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~erin~

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RE: Consent - 6/9/2008 10:24:09 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		For me it's more a matter of free informed consent. 

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RE: Consent - 6/9/2008 10:29:23 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I always find it amazing that people even need to say anything about this.
 
You need to be a true wacko to ignore the basic rules of the society you live in.

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RE: Consent - 6/9/2008 10:35:05 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah I know....but it does need to be said. Don't believe me?....bop on over to the "Hiding it from your spouse" thread and see how many people won't even say it's wrong. It doesn't take much time looking around these boards....or in a community to find people who believe that consent is important...but only when it fits their needs.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Consent - 6/9/2008 10:40:32 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Yeah I know....but it does need to be said. Don't believe me?....bop on over to the "Hiding it from your spouse" thread and see how many people won't even say it's wrong. It doesn't take much time looking around these boards....or in a community to find people who believe that consent is important...but only when it fits their needs.


Stupidity in the guise of sociopathic hedonism are common in this community. I'm really not a lot different in that regard-only smart enough to realize there will be no fun if I fail to treat my friends with at least a minumum of respect and compassion.

If you try to have your cake and eat it too-it just ends up all over your face.

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RE: Consent - 6/9/2008 11:03:59 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		I was literally thinking about the fine lines that seperate these very things.  Because when I literally take and use and abuse somebody, I'm pretty certain I damn well get off on it and mean it.  I'm certain people that do these things to unconsenting victims mean it as well.

There not only the difference of consent, but also one a approval and mutual desires, wants or needs.

For some reason, us BDSMers tend to still embrace some form of humanity and moral conduct, and actually both sides of the coin enjoy it.

When I was growing up and I had all kinds of dark fantasies it scared me to death of the prospect of turning into something truely evil and causing another person any real and true harm.   Very confusing period in my life.   So yeah, the fantasies and thoughts I had, while I got off on them, they scared the shit of out me literally. 

But what actually made me turn out the way I did, and not some criminal kidnapper rapist dude capturing girls and keeping them forced prisoners?   I often wonder about that one at times.

In many regards "the lifestyle" is a safe and sane outlet to living out these fantasies, desires and urges.  Even more considering there are those that want to be used like this.  

What's ironic is that after intense play, I'm tend to become extremely tranquil and dare I admit almost passive in nature for while.  I totally relaxes, and find I'm totally grounded in my own humanity.  Gone is that evil sadist for awhile, like some strange release.  I tend to want to connect with the person very much afterwards as well.  Strange process of things on a mental level.  Oh hell, I'm just another crazy person on a crazy website posting about crazy things.  LOL...

Long as it's all consentual I'm good with it.   

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RE: Consent - 6/9/2008 11:11:01 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

If you try to have your cake and eat it too-it just ends up all over your face.


Yeah but that could be all kinds of fun, as long as it's chocolate cake in your face and not pie in your face. 

As for consent, well, I didn't consent to my ex husband becoming a sociopathic asshole, but he did, and I did consent (for awhile, anyway) to the abuse he dished out to me.  And he didn't consent to my leaving his ass, but I did.  The world is not black and white to me.  I don't think lack of consent in all cases equals abuse, nor do I think consent in all cases avoids abuse.

While I understand the nature of the OP, I just don't live in those absolutes.


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RE: Consent - 6/9/2008 11:15:25 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

If you try to have your cake and eat it too-it just ends up all over your face.


Yeah but that could be all kinds of fun, as long as it's chocolate cake in your face and not pie in your face. 

As for consent, well, I didn't consent to my ex husband becoming a sociopathic asshole, but he did, and I did consent (for awhile, anyway) to the abuse he dished out to me.  And he didn't consent to my leaving his ass, but I did.  The world is not black and white to me.  I don't think lack of consent in all cases equals abuse, nor do I think consent in all cases avoids abuse.

While I understand the nature of the OP, I just don't live in those absolutes.



Some women do have a fetish for feeling "powerless". One big reason I have had girlfriends who got off on bondage, caging, being kept in diapers......they also liked  the "consent/non-consent" stuff. Being told no when they felt reactance or discomfort-or humiliation.
 
 But I pretty much knew that score already. It was an act, not for REAL.

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RE: Consent - 6/9/2008 11:53:51 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:


You need to be a true wacko to ignore the basic rules of the society you live in.


And yet people ignore this basic 'rule' every single day of their lives.
 
Consent is a nothing more than a buzz word to make people think they are being morally and ethically responsible in their own mind.  Consent is trumped by selfishness every time.  No relationship is entirely consensual - it may be consensual between two people but there are many more people involved and do they consent?  Or really does that not matter?  I loathe the word consent really.  Its so misleading and gives a feeling of superiority over others.
 
A consensual relationship in essence is an oxymoron.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 12:06:19 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:


You need to be a true wacko to ignore the basic rules of the society you live in.


And yet people ignore this basic 'rule' every single day of their lives.
 
Consent is a nothing more than a buzz word to make people think they are being morally and ethically responsible in their own mind.  Consent is trumped by selfishness every time.  No relationship is entirely consensual - it may be consensual between two people but there are many more people involved and do they consent?  Or really does that not matter?  I loathe the word consent really.  Its so misleading and gives a feeling of superiority over others.
 
A consensual relationship in essence is an oxymoron.
 
the.dark.

 
which is exactly why I admitted to being a self serving hedonist-but not a *stupid one*. Believe me,I will see that my needs are being met-but never at the cost of shooting off my own feet with someone I want to be around.
 
 The *stupid ones* use people until they use them UP.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 1:04:44 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Well consenting to have no consent is a bit of a Paradox.  There is a difference between a general consent in a relationship, verse having to repeatedly seeking consent before engaging in certain activities.

With the said, I've been able to take somebody by force drop them to their knees and starting using them with no Questions asked.   No asking if they wanted to have sex.  That totally distroys the meaning of Forced Sex.

However on the larger scale picture of things, this was something that was an understood dynamic that could happen at any time.  Hence consent to have no consent regarding something. Ironic Paradox, consent can in fact be  an Oxymoron.  No questions asked.   I'm pretty certain I actually engaged in the act of forced sex without clearing a few minutes ahead of time with my partner.  

I'm also with OwnedGirlie, consent does not in all cases avoid abuse.  Nor does lack of consent mean somebody is abusing another person.   For instance, let's say I make a decision for us to relocate or move without her consent.  Does this mean I'm being an Abusive asshole.   At times us Doms make decision based on what we feel is for the best!  Has nothing to do with abuse.    Let's say for instance a submissive consents to having her nose broken, and rib cages cracked from hell and back again.  I'm pretty certain if I did that to her, it would be a pretty abusive act.  Regardless if she consented to it or begged for me to do that do her.

I think in the general over of scope of things consent is a matter of what is acceptable.   For instance in my Dom couple relationship there were a few things both her and I did to one another.  Consent was not really involved, as much as the understanding that this is the nature of the beast, and we both accepted it.    I don't ever recall giving the specific consent to be stabbed in the arm with a fork while playing around with each other.   Sure Honey, go ahead and stab me.    I don't ever recall me asking for consent to squeeze her nipples hard while she was plucking my arm hairs out with her finger tips.  When her and I first got together there was no mention about anything regarding my arm hairs.   OK, since this was a Dom couple relationship and this stuff went on.   I have to agree with what Darcyandthedark posted, this applies to all relationships.

OK, my head is hurting over this one now...

< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 6/10/2008 1:08:51 AM >

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 1:22:07 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

When it comes to WIITWD the very foundation that we
stand upon here is consent. That is one thing that we should ALL be able to agree upon. For without at least that...without consent...we
have nothing.

Without consent the Dominant becomes the abuser and the
submissive becomes the abused.

Without consent the ethical sadist becomes a psychopath and the masochist becomes a victim.

Without consent "D" types become rapists and "s" types become the raped.

Without consent Poly becomes deceitful cheating.

Without consent we are dishonorable at best and criminal at worst.

Consent is the ONE thing that we should ALL be in agreement of....and NONE of us should ever tolerate anything less.



My mind is shot, because others people's post got me to thinking about.  Now, I'll have to get back to you when I figure out how I managed to consent to being Stabbed in the arm with fork.   Mind you it hurt like hell, however it was something that was purely acceptable to me.  I mulling a lot of extra thoughts around.   You know fun stuff, that has happen in my past relationships a lot of it that was not talked about before hand.   Everything is not fitting into the Consent Jello mold really well.   Best I can express is it, is just things that happen that were acceptable.  Basically things you would not let a complete stranger get away with, because you'd have their ass for it.   I suspect there's a better and more accurate word to use besides consent to convey the actual truth of things.  In my mind I've always thought about these things being consentual, but that was a diet pill for mental moral purposes.  Please excuse me while I continue onward with a small mind puke at the true reality. 

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 1:28:43 AM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Consent is the ONE thing that we should ALL be in agreement of....and NONE of us should ever tolerate anything less.

This makes one sit back and admit to things you would normally hide by joking. As one who likes to take and ravish, it is always with one who has first submitted. That submission, given freely and with love by an intelligent, loving woman, is probably the most wonderful thing in the world. Without that .. emptiness.

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I want to capture your mind, your spirit, your soul, your body, your devotion and your love. Then, will I give you my heart.

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 2:49:56 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

When it comes to WIITWD the very foundation that we
stand upon here is consent. That is one thing that we should ALL be able to agree upon. For without at least that...without consent...we
have nothing.

Without consent the Dominant becomes the abuser and the
submissive becomes the abused.

Without consent the ethical sadist becomes a psychopath and the masochist becomes a victim.

Without consent "D" types become rapists and "s" types become the raped.

Without consent Poly becomes deceitful cheating.

Without consent we are dishonorable at best and criminal at worst.

Consent is the ONE thing that we should ALL be in agreement of....and NONE of us should ever tolerate anything less.


Well it's the only one of the three that requires bilaterality as opposed to unilaterality.
I can only vouch for my own sanity....unilateral.
I can only agree limits which I believe will ensure my own safety and well-being......unilateral.
But consent definitely involves at least another in order to consent to....and since in reality I can only be responsible for my own actions (not for the actions of another or indeed others)....is bilateral consent really possible? So I am tending to agree with .the dark. here and say consensual relationship is an oxymoron.
I am not a lawyer but I would think it the exception rather than the rule when a defense tries to make a win situation based solely on the  'consenting adults' clause.
(I think we use the term 'consent' in the sense of needing a concept opposite to non-consensual).


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 6/10/2008 3:03:53 AM >

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 2:54:18 AM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Yeah I know....but it does need to be said. Don't believe me?....bop on over to the "Hiding it from your spouse" thread and see how many people won't even say it's wrong. It doesn't take much time looking around these boards....or in a community to find people who believe that consent is important...but only when it fits their needs.


So is this rant about consent or deceit? Make up your mind.

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 4:51:22 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		It seems to be about smearing anyone who doesn't ascribe to the OP's morality as some sort of potential rapist.

The advice in that other thread came from a variety of viewpoints, some of which succinctly addressed the questions asked, instead of using them as a platform to cram their morality down someone else's throat. Many of the posts pointed out the obvious harm in one of the choices offered.

Bigotry is bigotry no matter how many fairy wings you dress it up in.


.

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 5:34:17 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Consent is trumped by selfishness every time.


Oh Now this could be interesting as I don't think dark and I have so far been on opposite sides of a discussion

The statement "Consent is trumped by selfishness every time" is one I strongly disagree with. Now I do come from a standpoint where the consent I have actualy extends beyond where I would actualy go (My duty of care provides many of the bounderies, not the extent of the consent) but even so, there are situations where the selfish choise wouldn't be the one I took.... the little thing called integrity steps in the way. To Me, someone for whom your statement was true, would be out of control, a creature of passions, no self discipline or self control, possibly irrational.


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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 5:39:39 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Yeah I know....but it does need to be said. Don't believe me?....bop on over to the "Hiding it from your spouse" thread and see how many people won't even say it's wrong. It doesn't take much time looking around these boards....or in a community to find people who believe that consent is important...but only when it fits their needs.


So is this rant about consent or deceit? Make up your mind.



Deceit undermines consent. 


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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 5:43:24 AM   
LadyPhoenixRisen


Posts: 33
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline 		I have given my husband ongoing consent, I did that when we got together.  I may not want what he gives me all of the time and I may even have a feeling of violation, but my consent in the beginning trumps my feelings at this time.   I suppose if you go by what ownedgirlie said, I am consenting to not consenting everytime something happens..therefore there is always consenting going on whether I am actually agreeing or not. (whew, that was a mouth full) I suppose it just never comes into my mind to refuse him because I agreed to this type of relationship from the start.

With my pup, we aren't together in person, so it's not really an issue we have at this point.  Once we are, I am sure I will have to deal with the consent thing in a totally different way than I ever have.  He will be giving me ongoing consent (such as I have given) and I will use that whenever I choose.

I love that I can live in both dynamics, it certainly gives me an outlook I wouldn't have otherwise.

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Like the mighty phoenix,
Once again I rise from the flames set to destroy me & take flight.
I am Stronger; Glorious; Powerful; Victorious.

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 5:59:03 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Greetings Raven
 
Master sends his regards and we both hope you and yours are well!
 
I made that statement on the basis that any relationship is (IMO) inherently selfish in some form or another and BDSM relationships are the cream of that.  Taking erins standpoint - that without consent then we are dishonourable and criminal, we already are.  In the eyes of the law, we are.  Which is one persons view (in this case - shall we say the person being state or country).  But we deny the consent because we selfishly feel it is our right to have what we desire and to fulfil our potential - because the generic we, (mostly and hopefully) are aware of the consequences.
 
People do like to view consent in a narrow lens - because it suit their own moral and ethical belief.  But all relationships, no matter how restricted and hermitlike they may be has an effect on someone somewhere.
But I guess I tend to look father than many others might and who might be affected by my relationships.  It does not mean I let others rule them - it just means I am aware of my effect on society as a whole, and others who play a part of my life - which include children, parents, work collegues and friends. Consent is so not black and white.
 
the.dark.
 

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