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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 6:27:20 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

When it comes to WIITWD the very foundation that we
stand upon here is consent. That is one thing that we should ALL be able to agree upon. For without at least that...without consent...we
have nothing.

Without consent the Dominant becomes the abuser and the
submissive becomes the abused.

Without consent the ethical sadist becomes a psychopath and the masochist becomes a victim.

Without consent "D" types become rapists and "s" types become the raped.

Without consent Poly becomes deceitful cheating.

Without consent we are dishonorable at best and criminal at worst.

Consent is the ONE thing that we should ALL be in agreement of....and NONE of us should ever tolerate anything less.

aaawwwwwwwww yes... But... What is consent? There is so many variations to such a simple word that these simple platitudes can lose their luster.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 6/10/2008 6:47:56 AM >

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 6:27:29 AM

RavenMuse

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My regards to Darcy in return (Looking forward to seeing Y/you both again soon hopefully)

Firstly... t'is true thatno-one would be IN a relationship if they didn't get something, specificaly their needs met, from it, so the genral point about selfishness We can agree upon.

On the law angle... the law is an ass.... especialy on this issue. I don't see it is a 'consent' issue to stand against and break an unsound law. That is an issue of freedom... the government has no right to stick their nose into what happens privatly between two consenting adults. A belief I will fight for!

Consent from third partys.... I am in the happy position of My girls family being fully aware and accepting of what she is and of the Dynamic between us... the consent issue DOES apply here.... Whilst I in no way allow them to change what happens between My and My girl... neither to I make a big deal of it and push it under their nose. Even though they know, it isn't who they are. Likewise they make little gestures showing their acceptance and limited understanding... not asked for, certainly not demanded, but there.

In such situations there is a judgement call to be made.... the line between where things can be reasonably expected to not adversly impact others. I wouldn't think twice taking My girl out in her collar around London (Most would simply assume 'Goth' fashion anyhow), but I wouldn't cane her in the middle of traffalgar square.

So I hope you can see that even there, the statement Consent is trumped by selfishness every time is untrue, as the selfish act would be total disregard for others, not making a judgement call at all.Admittedly, not as clearcut as the normal context for discussions of consent, within the relationship where I do see it as being far more clear.

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 6:47:17 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

On the law angle... the law is an ass.... especialy on this issue. I don't see it is a 'consent' issue to stand against and break an unsound law. That is an issue of freedom... the government has no right to stick their nose into what happens privatly between two consenting adults. A belief I will fight for!

It was once said "an unjust law is no law"

My question.. What is a Unjust law and who decides that?

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 7:01:08 AM

pinksugarsub

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This is a reply to erin, not Raven. (BTW, hiya Sir!)

Man i really get irked by the 'WIITWD' acronymn. It annoys me more than 'the Lifestyle', 'BDSM-ers' or any other little written cue S/some P/pl seem to like.

There is no 'W/we'. It's ridiculous to posit that a boundary exists around E/everyone with any kind of kink, fetish or 'non-tradtional' sex life. All that can be said is W/w are all members of this particular web site, at this time, and W/we interact in some ways with S/some O/other members.

There are probably P/pl who've joined CollarMe, and never returned, so even that isn't true. And what about P/pl on different D/s web sites? Do W/we include T/them as well? What about P/pl who never use the 'net at all, but have a dynamic with A/another that 'looks' kinda like D/s? Are T/they to be included?

Given that this is such a diverse group, it's pretty obvious there's nothing A/any of U/us can ever post on these boards that will meet with universal agreement. You say the sun rises in the east and sets in the west? Try posting an Op about it and see if at least one member doesn't argue the point.

'Consent', like some many other words W/we see used on these boards, has no generally-accepted meaning. Once again, W/we have to struggle to make O/ourselves understood because there is no 'BDSM' nomenclature.

i think i know what you meant when you used the word 'consent'; e.g., 'yes Sir, You may spank me now'.

Just because S/some P/pl don't have exactly that kind of dynamic in T/their D/s relationship does not mean that T/they are the victims of crime. (Unless you include the laws on the books in many states that criminalize sodomy, etc.)

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 7:24:51 AM

daddysprop247

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on the issue of consent, i do not believe that consent is a defining factor of the lifestyle, simply because i view the "lifestyle" as having more to do with inherent personality traits and particular relationship values than any universal standard or protocol. also, consent can be a murky issue. do you need the consent only of those directly involved in a certain relationship, or that of everyone close to them as well? does age effect the validity of a person's consent? what about experience? what about mental health issues, past or present? what about those who make the conscious decision to permanently give up their consent? there are just too many variables.

i also agree with owned, in that abuse cannot be defined by consent or lack thereof. but i would take it a step further and say that for some, abuse (using classic textbook definitions) may be a valid part of the lifestyle, and if it works for them, it's really no one else's place to judge.

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RE: Consent - 6/10/2008 9:59:34 AM

missturbation

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quote:

Consent is the ONE thing that we should ALL be in agreement of....and NONE of us should ever tolerate anything less.

The basic concept of consent yes.
But then there are many forms of consent.
There are those who consent to every activity one at a time. For example 'today we are going to do flogging, do you consent?'
There are those that give consent at the beginning of a relationship and never need to give it again.
There are those who give consent as new activities / situations arise.
There are those who never give actual consent. To me this is abuse but to others maybe not.
Everyones view of what is consent and what is not and whether consent is actually needed will vary. So for me personally it is anohter topic similar to slave vs sub, there is never going to be a universal agreement on it.

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RE: Consent - 6/12/2008 3:41:00 PM

Lumus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Without consent the ethical sadist becomes a psychopath and the masochist becomes a victim.

This one caught my eye. Ethics are subjective. Mention a person who tries to commit suicide or assisted suicide at the dinner table, and you'll see what I mean in the resulting spin-off of ethically based conclusions [not moral, mind you; ethical conclusions are just as prevalent, if not as noticable]. Now, those of us who do commit sadism indiscrimminately might go crazy for entirely different reasons...but we get better...

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RE: Consent - 6/12/2008 4:30:04 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
Oh Now this could be interesting as I don't think dark and I have so far been on opposite sides of a discussion

The statement "Consent is trumped by selfishness every time" is one I strongly disagree with. Now I do come from a standpoint where the consent I have actualy extends beyond where I would actualy go (My duty of care provides many of the bounderies, not the extent of the consent) but even so, there are situations where the selfish choise wouldn't be the one I took.... the little thing called integrity steps in the way. To Me, someone for whom your statement was true, would be out of control, a creature of passions, no self discipline or self control, possibly irrational.

Agreed on all counts, including this being the first time I've been in serious disagreement with one of Dark's posts. I am going to guess I didn't understand his post correctly. I can see, for instance, that the word "selfishness" can be clouded by enlightened self interest sort of thinking. One thing I know for absolutely certain though, despite being the guy making all the decisions in our household now, I am not always getting my selfish way. In fact, I doubt I have ever knowingly made a command which did not factor in her responses to that command and weighed the overall benefit to the relationship in light of that.

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RE: Consent - 6/12/2008 4:37:47 PM

leadership527

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quote:

missturbation said:
Everyones view of what is consent and what is not and whether consent is actually needed will vary. So for me personally it is anohter topic similar to slave vs sub, there is never going to be a universal agreement on it.

Maybe.. but really, as a concept, how hard is this.. someone either wanted something or they did not. Yes yes, we can go over how much consent is required or the timing of it.. but the bottom line to me is simple.. if I push my girl past where she wanted to go, then I screwed up... possibly criminally. And yes, it's my job to know that. The buck really does stop here.... damn that whole responsibility going with authority thing.... *growls*

I'm the first to admit that I'm pretty uptight about the consent thing between myself and the woman I love more than my own life. For me, in order for her to give me consent, there are a pile of conditions that must be true including the fact that she must have at least one other ATTRACTIVE alternative. Me saying, "obey me or I won't love you anymore" is not getting consent, it's simply coercion.

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RE: Consent - 6/13/2008 1:58:04 PM

Aiden

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

on the issue of consent, i do not believe that consent is a defining factor of the lifestyle, simply because i view the "lifestyle" as having more to do with inherent personality traits and particular relationship values than any universal standard or protocol. also, consent can be a murky issue. do you need the consent only of those directly involved in a certain relationship, or that of everyone close to them as well? does age effect the validity of a person's consent? what about experience? what about mental health issues, past or present? what about those who make the conscious decision to permanently give up their consent? there are just too many variables.

i also agree with owned, in that abuse cannot be defined by consent or lack thereof. but i would take it a step further and say that for some, abuse (using classic textbook definitions) may be a valid part of the lifestyle, and if it works for them, it's really no one else's place to judge.

Hello daddysprop, I've always found your posts well spoken and interesting.

When it comes to abuse, especially in intense dynamics I agree that things can get very murky. There is also a kind of bdsm Stockholm Syndrome some slaves fall into. As you probably know this is a process where an abused person clutches all the more tightly to her abuser as a defense against pain and chaos. A symbiotic (symbi-psychotic?) love/hate relationship.

~aiden

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RE: Consent - 6/13/2008 3:18:14 PM

daddysprop247

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aiden

Hello daddysprop, I've always found your posts well spoken and interesting.

When it comes to abuse, especially in intense dynamics I agree that things can get very murky. There is also a kind of bdsm Stockholm Syndrome some slaves fall into. As you probably know this is a process where an abused person clutches all the more tightly to her abuser as a defense against pain and chaos. A symbiotic (symbi-psychotic?) love/hate relationship.

~aiden

yes, sometimes this is the case. and sometimes, one who needs to be abused is fortunate enough to find love and companionship with one who needs to abuse. who can say that the need or yearning for abuse is less valid than any other?

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RE: Consent - 6/13/2008 6:13:15 PM

stella41b

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Context is important.

Consent to me with regard to BDSM implies 'informed consent' - where consent is merely one component, taken together with understanding, knowledge and awareness, not to mention personal responsibility to arrive at informed consent.

Using criminals as an example of non-consensual activities is shaky. Sure, you got Aileen Wuornos, Peter Sutcliffe and Harold Shipman who didn't seek consent.

Then you have Fred and Rosemary West, Dennis Neilsen and others who engaged their victims in S/M or what can be described as BDSM and that counter argument regarding consent starts to look a little shaky.

However I guess this distinction between consent and informed consent appears to be straightforward to us.

Another example of informed consent is the consumption of alcoholic liquor. Drinking alcohol can cause death, the risks are there, but barman or liquor store supplies and I drink on the basis of informed consent. Even better, someone can offer to buy me a drink and I can consent. This is an example of informed consent.

However when it comes to politicians and those who write legislation that distinction between consent and informed consent appears to be like Russian cognitive grammar or applied psychology - they just don't get it.

I can go out and decide to get legless, ending up distributing pavement pizzas along the High Street, suffering a terrible hangover, red eyes, intense headaches, and all the associated problems and suffering from drinking too much say vodka, and the police won't come and arrest whoever supplied me with the alcohol nor me. I can keep pictures of people drinking from wine glasses and bottles on my hard drive and even photos of heavily inebriated people and I wouldn't face prosecution.

But if I chose to have someone whip me and somehow the police got to know about it then whoever whipped me could get nicked for whipping me and I could get nicked for consenting to the whipping. Prime example? The Spanner Case in the UK.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Or is it that BDSM scenes are not taxable?

People on this site seek to do very strange things with each other but this to me is the same as someone going out with the intention of getting steamed - one would assume that personal resposnibility plays a part, together with awareness, understanding, knowledge and thus it leads back to informed consent.

It's a funny old world, isn't it?

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