Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights”


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 5:02:19 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling we are wasting our time.Splitting hairs for the simple purpose of splitting hairs.I have read a dozen legitimate answers to the OP all of them standing alone should have sufficed,taken in their entirety this exercise should have satisfied any reasonable query...

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 5:04:19 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I do understand your argument, but given the context and historical document in the time frame it was written, I don't see it's relevance.



Thank you for bearing with me, Celeste. As usual, expressing my ideas is a lot harder then having the idea itself.
 
My goal was not to have a debate over the Declaration of Independence, or its writers intent (I know, I fell of track), but that certain concepts in it, such as “rights”, are faulty.
 
The relevance being, the ideas in the document are still held as truth today, regardless of the circumstances in which it was written.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 5:08:49 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

We may not be a perfect country, but we're a damn lot better than a lot of places in the world.


I do not disagree with this.

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 5:19:29 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

George Carlin did an interesting bit about rights being imaginary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiBt-pqp0E


He says it much better then I could have.  

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 5:41:29 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Do you not have legal aid in America ? IE the State provides a lawyer for free ? 


For someone accused of a crime, yes. Jokingly referred to as “Justice for the criminal system”.
 
It is my understanding, however, these are newer lawyers (not as well known by the judges), with less experience. Not the ideal situation against a well seasoned prosecutor.

quote:


Do you suggest dual systems, or triple systems.
 

No, I think everyone should be judged as individuals.

quote:

Dont Judges have the ability and legality to take circumstances into consideration ?


I’m not sure about that, or just how much. I do know there is a certain amount of precedence that comes from previous cases.
 
For instance, a signed agreement I had with my ex meant nothing, because it was not ordered by a judge. A decision based on a previous case.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 5:57:10 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Your right to privacy.


Even if I owned a house, wouldn’t there be someone snooping around to find out what I have, so the government will know how much they think I should pay them for what I own?
 
I was harassed by the property manager here for having too much company. The sad part being; there was no campany; at all.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 6:05:00 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"The tree of Liberty needs to be refreshed occaisionally with the blood of Patriots."



Are you volunteering?

_____________________________



(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 6:07:39 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

People in many other countries don't have a lot of rights because they won't do what is neccessary to secure those rights.
And in most cases that's going to be armed surrection and violence.
"The tree of Liberty needs to be refreshed occaisionally with the blood of Patriots."


Popeye, much of Eastern Europe has done exactly that in recent years. People without money or weapons have little chance to overthrow a well armed dictator. Especially where one tribe has effective control of government. The Shia in Iraq were never able to overthrow Saddam without help. Its too easy to sit back and say " they should revolt "


Politesub, well good luck to them.
Whether they revolt or whether they don't revolt is not up to me is it?

"People without money or weapons have little chance to overthrow a well armed dictator."
If the Minutemen in "The Colonies" could do it anyone can.

And wasn't it Caligula or Nero who was very simply slain by one of his guards?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 6:18:31 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Popeye I think that was Caligula ,Nero was the asshole with the fiddle

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 6:20:37 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Using the word 'entitled' is too narrow (and arguably incorrect) a definition.


Please... how so?


Read the portion of philo's post you edited out - the answer is there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

Thankfully, there is a god.



You have the right to believe that. Doesn't make it true of course.

You have the right to pretend that gainsaying every reasonable response you have received counts as a cogent argument, doesn't make it so.

You can play petty semantic games and believe they are sincere participation in a discussion.

See, you have rights, right here.


Z.



_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 6:40:08 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"The tree of Liberty needs to be refreshed occaisionally with the blood of Patriots."



Are you volunteering?
Kittin you wouldn't be trying to get our friend Popeye hurt would you?

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 8:20:18 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Using the word 'entitled' is too narrow (and arguably incorrect) a definition.


Please... how so?


Read the portion of philo's post you edited out - the answer is there.



I did, before I asked the question.
 
Of course, I could have assumed, but thought it was more appropriate to ask.

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 8:27:51 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I do understand your argument, but given the context and historical document in the time frame it was written, I don't see it's relevance.



**Cpk69, and a lot of it was the colonists basically telling King George and the English to go fuck themselves.
"This is what we're going to do and if you don't like it eat shit!"**

Thank you for bearing with me, Celeste. As usual, expressing my ideas is a lot harder then having the idea itself.
 
My goal was not to have a debate over the Declaration of Independence, or its writers intent (I know, I fell of track), but that certain concepts in it, such as “rights”, are faulty.
 
The relevance being, the ideas in the document are still held as truth today, regardless of the circumstances in which it was written.



< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/10/2008 8:28:52 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 9:05:00 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Yes you have rights.  We all have rights.



I consider the things I am capable of, due to abilities and opportunities to be liberties; not rights.
 
Having rights implies I am entitled to something; I see nothing that I am entitled to.

quote:

Rather, rights exist to delineate civil right from civil wrong.  Rights, however we conceptualize them, form the framework within which a just society may be defined.


Like what we have going on in the US?
 
quote:

Without rights, the concept of justice has no meaning.


I disagree; justice has nothing to do with “rights”, but instead, liberty. And the idea that it does, is most likely the very thing that causes many to go without.


cpK....I think you're trying much too hard to make your point, but I think you raise some fascinating questions.

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 9:15:45 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69


Thank you for bearing with me, Celeste. As usual, expressing my ideas is a lot harder then having the idea itself.
 
My goal was not to have a debate over the Declaration of Independence, or its writers intent (I know, I fell of track), but that certain concepts in it, such as “rights”, are faulty.
 
The relevance being, the ideas in the document are still held as truth today, regardless of the circumstances in which it was written.



I'll assume since you didn't debate my point, that you agree that given the perspective at the time, the issue of Native American Indians is, in fact, a non-issue in regard to the Declaration.

Regarding the Declaration itself - It was written for a specific purpose. It is not a living, breathing document. It was not intended to be held as law. They are opinions of men written as a grievance to their King. It's not even a legal document. It's a letter. If you want to know your 'rights' under the law, you need to turn to the Constitution which was written for us in perpetuity. That's a living, breathing document. That was meant to change, if need be, and language was written into it to ensure that could happen. You are taking what is, essentially, a list of grievances and assigning it the same weight as the Constititution. The authors of the Declaration held certain opinions. They wrote a letter to King George based on those opinions and outlined why they were doing what they were doing. You hold differing opinions. That's okay .. but I truly don't believe you can understand 'why' they thought as they thought and held those opinions until you put on their powdered wigs and try to see it from their perspective.

If your concepts are hard to put into words, perhaps it's because as I suggested. You are using the 2008 definition of 'rights' under the luxury of hindsight to try to understand what was written from the authors perspective. You are calling their use of the word 'rights' faulty. So, let's get on the same page with that word first.

How did the authors define that word? I don't know but I can make a fairly educated guess. My guess is that it meant 'civil liberties' given the historical content of the Constitution which came later (and the fact that so many of the signers had a vested interest in the Constitutions language). It clearly differentiates between the first few ammendments of the Bill of Rights as 'civil liberties' and with the later ammendments as 'procedural rights'. The one dealing with 'who' and the other dealing with 'how'.


< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 6/10/2008 9:17:18 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 9:18:12 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Your right to privacy.


Even if I owned a house, wouldn’t there be someone snooping around to find out what I have, so the government will know how much they think I should pay them for what I own?
 
I was harassed by the property manager here for having too much company. The sad part being; there was no campany; at all.


Keep your shades down...

I would suggest that the defence of our rights from infringement is why we have a 2nd Amendment.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 9:30:44 PM   
TieNTeas


Posts: 101
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The pursuit of happiness means you get to pursue it, not have it handed to you.


I agree, which is why I was a bit surprised that the idea had been promised to the people of the US, in the Declaration of Independence.
 
Further more, if my happiness infringes on someone else’s liberties, I am even less entitled to it. (That is if one can be less entitled then not entitled)


According to the book Happy for No Reason by Marci Shimoff, pg 29 she states "Back in Jefferson's day ... the common usage of the word 'pursue' was not 'to chase after'.  In 1776, to pursue something meant to practice that activity, to do it regularly, to make a habit of it."

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 9:37:05 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		BitaTruble I think I love You....You have such a way with words....thats soooo sexy

(in reply to TieNTeas)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 9:59:53 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Mike.. you are just too cute!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:12:38 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

A recent thread caused me to consider this idea closer. I have abilities, and opportunities; but rights? I don’t think so.
 
Not to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.
 
None of these things have just been handed to me. If they were rights they should be, and without consequence.
 
I have to work for these things, and only get to keep them, if I am responsible toward them. Even then, there’s no guarantee.
 
Do you have rights?


Yes, i do.  i am an American, and i am guaranteed certain rights by the Constittution.  The Founding Fathers were influenced by philosophers like Thomas Paine.
 
http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/paine.htm
 
In some parts of the world, human rights are by no means guaranteed.
 
http://www.amnesty.org/
 
IMO, these governments commit human rights violations.  The fact that such things go on is by no means a basis for positing that they should continue.
 
pinksugarsub

< Message edited by pinksugarsub -- 6/10/2008 10:13:35 PM >

_____________________________





(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094