stella41b
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quote:
ORIGINAL: popeye1250
quote:
ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Mike, yes i am suggesting exactly that. I am not trying to take anything away from the bravery of the Patriots here either. The influence France had was enormous, right from the initial supply of weapons and finances, through to the use of troops and naval power. I forget which battle, maybe Yorktown, their were more French troops taking part than Colonialists. I also doubt the outcome would have been the same without the French Naval blockade, which effectively cut Cornwallis off. The fact is France had their own agenda, which was to tie up British forces and naval power, as we fought around the globe.
The irony of all this was the fall of the French Empire, the revoloution in France was largely a part of France being bankrupted by the war in the USA. Even more ironic was the renaming of French fries to freedom fries, given the connections.
This all returns to my original reply to Popeye, without outside help, oppressed peoples normally dont have the military might to overthrow their dictators, King George included.
Politesub, that's pretty weak.
Remember the Jews in the ghettos in Warsaw, Poland?
They'd kill one or two Germans and grab their guns and ammo.
Then that would give them more power to kill more Germans and grab their ammo too.
Pretty soon they had 300 Jews with guns and ammo!
And if each one of those Jews can kill 3 Germans each they've got 1,200 Jews with guns and ammo.
Plus, they've got sabotage on their side as well.
It can "mushroom" real fast.
They gave the Germans an awful beating.
Popeye, it wasn't like that at all, trust me.
The majority of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were 'liquidated' at Treblinka, one of three death camps set up under Operation Reinhard - the other two were Sobibor and Majdanek.
Treblinka is a village on the main Warsaw-Vilnius trunk route not far from Malkinie in the far north east of Poland. There were two camps, Treblinka I and Treblinka II. Treblinka I was a labour camp which was built in the summer of 1941 after the Nazis attacked the Soviet Union. This was a camp for Poles, Jews and criminals. It was run by 20 SS officers and around 100 guards, mainly Ukrainians. The camp was divided into two: the administration part and the camp, which was further divided into three: Poles, Jews, and women. It was liquidated with the advance of the Red Army in 1944.
Treblinka II was the death camp set up under Operation Reinhard. It was built late spring 1942 and existed until November 1943. Around 800,000 Jews were exterminated here, which makes it second only to Auschwitz KL Birkenau where around 1.2 million were exterminated. It was staffed by 20-30 SS officers and 120-100 guards, again Ukrainian. There were a further 300-400 prisoners who were whipped and beaten as they worked. If they woke with a bruise showing they were executed by firing squad that morning, and other prisoners were brought in to replace them. On average Treblinka II went through 1,000-1,200 prisoners every week. This camp opened in July 1942 and the first transport of Jews from the Warsaw ghetto took place July 23 of that year. They were loaded onto special freight trains of 60 wagons at Warsaw Main station (Warszawa Głowna) at the south west corner of the ghetto and also at the Gdansk station at the north of the ghetto (Warszawa Gdanska) and transported to Treblinka. The locomotives had a special loud whistle which sounded as the trains approached Malkinie to let the Ukrainian guards know that a train was arriving and to take up their positions. Jews arrived at a railway station in the camp, they were herded through the station, stripped, shaved, and sorted between the Pit and the Tube.
Those allocated to the Pit would be required to sit on the egde of a large pit with their backs to the station behind, they would then be machine-gunned and their bodies would fall forward into the pit. Guards would then come with rifles and shoot at any signs of movement. Those allocated to the Tube would be forced to run naked about a mile along a wide path cleared from forest - barbed wire on both sides - uphill to the gas chambers. They were sorted into men, women and children. The men would be gassed in the chambers first and the women and children literally shit themselves as they heard their menfolk dying. The stench from the shit and rotting bodies could be smelt up to ten miles away and suicides on the trains were common.
Treblinka II was closed down after the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto in August 1943. The Nazis filled in the graves, and planted trees so that by November 1943 Treblinka II resembled pretty much as it does today.
The Warsaw Uprising took place in 1944 between August 1 and October 3. It was an armed resistance organized by Armia Krajowa (Polish National Army) under the code word 'Burza' (storm) involving also Polskie Panstwo Podziemne (The Polish Underground Republic, part of the Polish Resistance) The idea was to rise up against the Nazis and also the advancing Red Army to create a different Polish government than the one agreed at the Teheran Conference between the USA, Britain and the USSR.
When the Uprising broke out Heinrich Himmler ordered that Warsaw be completely destroyed and everyone in it killed without taking into account the Hague Convention. The Red Army were advancing through eastern Poland and had just taken the town of Radzymin, some 40 miles north east of Warsaw. Red Army commanders paused their advance, taking into account their own successes and advance and optimistic about their own planned offensives on the basis of the Uprising they estimated that it would last a few days. It actually lasted 63 days. Polish losses were around 10,000 killed, 7,000 missing, 5,000 soldiers injured, and between 120,000-200,000 civilian casualties - almost all the Warsaw 'intelligentsia' and many youths among them. Among the Nazis 10,000 were killed, 7,000 lost or died as a result of injuries, 9,000 injured soldiers, 300 tanks and armoured cars destroyed.
During the Uprising a further 25% of the city was destroyed, and after the end by the Vernichtungskommando - the Nazi destruction force a further 35% was destroyed, which taking into account the 10% during the 1939 invasion and the 15% destroyed during the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto meant that by the end of the War 85% of Warsaw lay in ruins.
The above figures taken from data taken from the Polish Instytut Pamieci Narodowej (National History Institute), the Warsaw Uprising Museum and Polish Wikipedia pages.
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