RE: "America's Medicated Army"

RE: "America's Medicated Army" (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 1:50:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BumpStick Well I am very glad about what our Brigade commander told and tells us.... "you have less than 3 seconds out there to make a decision... they have 3 months to analize it and tell they didn like... Your out there in it. I will stand behind you... Its better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6." Such thinking would apply theoretically ,I hope to those actually armed wouldn't it and not those merely "who lit a smoke".By all means U.S.serviceman should do what ever it takes to come home in one peice,one can hope that they can do that while maintaining some semblance of sanity and humanity...IMO

BumpStick -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 2:18:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Such thinking would apply theoretically ,I hope to those actually armed wouldn't it and not those merely "who lit a smoke".By all means U.S.serviceman should do what ever it takes to come home in one peice,one can hope that they can do that while maintaining some semblance of sanity and humanity...IMO Our Command has told us that if we did what we thought was right to protect ourselves and other US soldiers and civilians (yeah we hae some working with us) they will stand behind us... ever had a kid walk up to you or one of your friends and hand you a granade? Thank god the kid didnt know he had to pull the pin... A lit smoke or noise will not send us shooting. There has to be a hostile threat or a hostile intent. Now see how that is a judgment call. Its best not to hesitate cause that hesitation gets people soldiers killed.... But we have to live with what we do and what we have see over here. If I could forget 1/2 the things i have seen over here... things no one whould ever have to see or experence. I am lucky but a few of my friends havent been and it sucks to me only a couple hundred meters away and helpless not able to do anything for them.

slvemike4u -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 2:32:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BumpStick quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Such thinking would apply theoretically ,I hope to those actually armed wouldn't it and not those merely "who lit a smoke".By all means U.S.serviceman should do what ever it takes to come home in one peice,one can hope that they can do that while maintaining some semblance of sanity and humanity...IMO Our Command has told us that if we did what we thought was right to protect ourselves and other US soldiers and civilians (yeah we hae some working with us) they will stand behind us... ever had a kid walk up to you or one of your friends and hand you a granade? Thank god the kid didnt know he had to pull the pin... A lit smoke or noise will not send us shooting. There has to be a hostile threat or a hostile intent. Now see how that is a judgment call. Its best not to hesitate cause that hesitation gets people soldiers killed.... But we have to live with what we do and what we have see over here. If I could forget 1/2 the things i have seen over here... things no one whould ever have to see or experence. I am lucky but a few of my friends havent been and it sucks to me only a couple hundred meters away and helpless not able to do anything for them. BumpStick none of my postings wer aimed at YOU and for gods sake were never intended to suggest that you are anyone else wearing the Uniform should hesitate and thereby put yourselves or your brother soldiers in danger.Rather it was aimed at those who could discuss the killing of innocents with a callous disregard for the attending loss of life.Sorry if anything posted by me was misconstrued in any way...god bless and come home safe

BumpStick -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 2:44:55 PM)
I did not feel they were aimed at me or those I am serving with. Its hard to explain and impossible to fully understand things over here with out having been. Those who discuss the killing of innocents or dissregard for human life have naver taken a life themselves. If they have then they would see things differently. Once you have taken a life and had lifes of those around you taken your out look changes. Its apparent some do not think that it does. And when your still alive when you should be dead... It has an impact too. I'm not goign to tell anyone what they are saying or believe is wrong. We have freedom of speech. Freedom isnt free.

jlf1961 -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 2:54:56 PM)
Amen bumpstick, you made your point clearly and exactly on target. Hang in there troop, remember, when you cant walk, crawl, when you cant crawl anymore, let someone carry you. This has been the basis for every ground pounder since the Spartans.

BumpStick -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 3:17:40 PM)
I'm luck I dont have much longer, only 3 more weeks. But its been a long 14months thus far.

slvemike4u -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 3:40:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BumpStick I'm luck I dont have much longer, only 3 more weeks. But its been a long 14months thus far. Godspeed and thanks

philosophy -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 3:41:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BumpStick Those who discuss the killing of innocents or dissregard for human life have naver taken a life themselves. If they have then they would see things differently. Once you have taken a life and had lifes of those around you taken your out look changes. Its apparent some do not think that it does. ...i don't think that anyone is seriously suggesting that taking a human life changes your personal universe. i know it would mine. Thing is, it's not just one persons universe at stake here. Some of us have were saddened at one posters apparent callous disregard for innocent life. He justified being hopped up on drugs so much that he couldn't tell the difference between a non-target and a target by suggesting that because his plane was so expensive it was better to kill a few innocents than risk banging it up. Apparently he saw this as more efficient. It was that specific opinion that have been objected to.

slvemike4u -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 4:02:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: BumpStick Those who discuss the killing of innocents or dissregard for human life have naver taken a life themselves. If they have then they would see things differently. Once you have taken a life and had lifes of those around you taken your out look changes. Its apparent some do not think that it does. ...i don't think that anyone is seriously suggesting that taking a human life changes your personal universe. i know it would mine. Thing is, it's not just one persons universe at stake here. Some of us have were saddened at one posters apparent callous disregard for innocent life. He justified being hopped up on drugs so much that he couldn't tell the difference between a non-target and a target by suggesting that because his plane was so expensive it was better to kill a few innocents than risk banging it up. Apparently he saw this as more efficient. It was that specific opinion that have been objected to. Thankyou

philosophy -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 4:05:06 PM)
...just wish you hadn't quoted me before i noticed my glaring grammatical error. [:D] First sentence ought to have read....... "...i don't think that anyone is seriously suggesting that taking a human life doesn't change your personal universe" ...apologies to all.

Vendaval -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 4:08:04 PM)
That is a one of my main concerns. The other is that the military personnel with PTSD are not getting the treatment they need and being sent back out to fight. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou We prescribe pills for everything now a days. It's beyond ridiculous, and the long term implications aren't known. I think it's going to come back and bite us in the ass.

DomAviator -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 5:43:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: BumpStick Well I am very glad about what our Brigade commander told and tells us.... "you have less than 3 seconds out there to make a decision... they have 3 months to analize it and tell they didn like... Your out there in it. I will stand behind you... Its better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6." Such thinking would apply theoretically ,I hope to those actually armed wouldn't it and not those merely "who lit a smoke".By all means U.S.serviceman should do what ever it takes to come home in one peice,one can hope that they can do that while maintaining some semblance of sanity and humanity...IMO With night vision goggles, in the dark , at 500 kts that flash is a flash as Bumpstick pointed out you dont have time to sort it out. Im not giving them the benefit of the doubt of "why the fuck was there a light bloom on infrared." Im not going to wait until a shoulder fired SAM flues up my tailpipe, or an RPG comes through my canopy to engage. We have curfews for a reason. Dont have your fucking weddings outdoors at night firing AK's into the sky - rent a hall and throw rice, dont assemble in groups, and in every action of your life in occupied territory live it wondering what it looks like to a pilot seeing you on night vision. Light that cig? nope BAD idea. Bury your dead cat at night? Really bad idea cause Ill think youre planting an IED. Assemble in groups and hang out on the street corner... Hmmmm looks like a military unit to me. Take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXvEy8leKpM Do you see weapons? Can you even make out gender or do you just see thermal images of heat from a human torso? Or in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1of92r7vFuU Notice where the pilot says if you find one Ill buy you ice cream? Do you notice they are going for "I dont see any movement"? Not a good time for some kid to run out of the ruined apartment building - that would be movement and would get his ass wasted. You dont have time to second guess it is us or them....

slvemike4u -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 5:52:51 PM)
DA under the theory of You were there I wasn't ,I will concede what You are saying.What I and others are objecting to is the cavalier recounting and glorifying of non-combatant casualties

DomAviator -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 5:55:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Better I be sharp and jumpy and bomb a civilian who lit a smoke than that I am overcautious and wind up losing the aircraft Look, this attitude is easy for you to say, however the troops on the ground have to live with what we see and do. Tell you what, if I could pass on HALF the nightmares I have from the places I have been, I think your attitude would change. Try living with the face of a kid scavanging for food who made the mistake of making the wrong sound at the wrong time and ended up with 5 rounds in his chest. Sorry, the drugs may keep you alert, but they will not erase memories. And of course there is that wonderful invistigation after such and incident, and god forbid the press get ahold of it.... While I appreciate the guys upstairs, I do not, cannot believe that you are describing a commonly held attitude, considering the rules of engagement clearly state, "Do not drop ordinance if unsure of target or possible unacceptable civilian losses." Well jlf then you aint never been in a squadron ready room. We watch the gun cam films, we laugh, we high five each other and FYI I dont know where you got those rules of engagement - mine were "fire if you observe hostile activity or hostile personell. Engage targets of opportunity according to the following priorities..." (If I see a flash, thats hostile! If I see people congregated after curfew thats hostile, if somebody so much as paints me with a radar thats hostile and I dont care if the radar station was put on the roof of an elementary school - as saddam did!) I mean like I said earlier - I dont care about the muslim custom of firing guns skyward to celebrate your wedding. If you want to live to fuck the bride THROW RICE cause if I see muzzle flashes, your wedding is going to end badly. As for the nightmares - very sorry. You might want to try those antidepressants they are giving out at the VA. I dont have any nightmares at all! None, zip, nada . None of the pilots I know have nightnares about combat and we killed a hell of a lot more people than any infantrymen. (Now alimony checks or airline lay offs are the kind of things you have nightmares about) I look at the pictures of the two Highways of Death and think God Damn that was some night! [:D] We laugh about it, we retell the stories at Tailhook , and we razz the Air Force on who got the most that night. In the scenario of the kid you gave, the little fucker shouldnt have been sneaking around stealing should he. Poor judgement and unacceptable behavior in a combat zone. After you zipped his ass he isnt hungry any more is he? SO dont kick your ass about it, shit happens, move on and get over it... Honestly there is nothing you could do in war worth having nightmares about except hesitating and getting one of your buddies killed.

slvemike4u -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 6:10:02 PM)
WOW Thats it......WOW

servantheart -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 6:12:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Better I be sharp and jumpy and bomb a civilian who lit a smoke than that I am overcautious and wind up losing the aircraft Look, this attitude is easy for you to say, however the troops on the ground have to live with what we see and do. Tell you what, if I could pass on HALF the nightmares I have from the places I have been, I think your attitude would change. Try living with the face of a kid scavanging for food who made the mistake of making the wrong sound at the wrong time and ended up with 5 rounds in his chest. Sorry, the drugs may keep you alert, but they will not erase memories. And of course there is that wonderful invistigation after such and incident, and god forbid the press get ahold of it.... While I appreciate the guys upstairs, I do not, cannot believe that you are describing a commonly held attitude, considering the rules of engagement clearly state, "Do not drop ordinance if unsure of target or possible unacceptable civilian losses." Well jlf then you aint never been in a squadron ready room. We watch the gun cam films, we laugh, we high five each other and FYI I dont know where you got those rules of engagement - mine were "fire if you observe hostile activity or hostile personell. Engage targets of opportunity according to the following priorities..." (If I see a flash, thats hostile! If I see people congregated after curfew thats hostile, if somebody so much as paints me with a radar thats hostile and I dont care if the radar station was put on the roof of an elementary school - as saddam did!) I mean like I said earlier - I dont care about the muslim custom of firing guns skyward to celebrate your wedding. If you want to live to fuck the bride THROW RICE cause if I see muzzle flashes, your wedding is going to end badly. As for the nightmares - very sorry. You might want to try those antidepressants they are giving out at the VA. I dont have any nightmares at all! None, zip, nada . None of the pilots I know have nightnares about combat and we killed a hell of a lot more people than any infantrymen. (Now alimony checks or airline lay offs are the kind of things you have nightmares about) I look at the pictures of the two Highways of Death and think God Damn that was some night! [:D] We laugh about it, we retell the stories at Tailhook , and we razz the Air Force on who got the most that night. In the scenario of the kid you gave, the little fucker shouldnt have been sneaking around stealing should he. Poor judgement and unacceptable behavior in a combat zone. After you zipped his ass he isnt hungry any more is he? SO dont kick your ass about it, shit happens, move on and get over it... Honestly there is nothing you could do in war worth having nightmares about except hesitating and getting one of your buddies killed. Somebody PLEASE pinch me, hit me, throw ice water on me...something....anything to wake me up from this nightmare!!![sm=whoa.gif]

kittinSol -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 6:12:45 PM)
Shit happens... [>:] .

celticlord2112 -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 6:12:53 PM)
DA, you stepped way over the line here. Seriously NOT cool.

Alumbrado -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 6:20:09 PM)
Politicians and policy makers create war, troops don't. Politicians make children and hospitals targets. Politicians manipulate atrocities. Troops use the equipment at hand to stay alive, very often by targeting other people, sometimes indiscriminately... And those who gave the politicians their power sit back and criticize those who stayed alive. Same as it ever was.

DomAviator -> RE: "America's Medicated Army" (6/12/2008 6:21:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 DA, you stepped way over the line here. Seriously NOT cool. Why Celtic? This is EXACTLY the reason that the antidepressants are available. Nobody should have to live with recurring nightmares over things they did in the service. Its the very point of WHY the drugs are given and are available. Shit happens in war and there is no need to let it haunt you. Thats why the VA offers counselling and medication to eliminate the nightmares and to help you cope with whatever happens and there is no shame in it. If he shot a kid, that kid made a fatal mistake by surprising a combat unit. It could have just as easily have been an insurgent. Hesitation is what gets people killed. OUR people. He did the right thing as far as Im concerned. I assume this was Vietnam and a lot of good men died from kids with grenades and rigged shoe shine boxes. A kid will kill ya as dead as anyone else. If he was in the wrong place, doing something he shouldnt have, the right call is to fire. What if he was getting ready to toss a grenade in the chow hall instead of scavenging for food????

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