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Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 1:35:09 PM   
FirmhandKY


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 Irish EU vote lost, officials say

Substantial vote tallies across Ireland show the European Union Lisbon reform treaty has been rejected, Irish Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has said.

European Commission head Jose Manuel Barroso said all indications were that Ireland had indeed rejected the treaty.

He called for other states to continue their ratification processes and said a solution should be sought.

The treaty must be ratified by all 27 members. Only Ireland has held a public vote on it.

With results in from 39 of 43 constituencies, the No campaign was ahead by 53.6% to 46.4%, state broadcaster RTE reported.

Mr Ahern was the first senior figure from the Irish government to admit that it looked like the treaty had failed.

"It looks like this will be a No vote," Mr Ahern said on live television. "At the end of the day, for a myriad of reasons, the people have spoken."

...

European leaders earlier said they had no "plan B" for how to proceed if Ireland's electorate voted No.

,,,

The treaty, which is designed to help the EU cope with its expansion into eastern Europe, provides for a streamlining of the European Commission, the removal of the national veto in more policy areas, a new president of the European Council and a strengthened foreign affairs post.

The treaty is due to come into force on 1 January 2009.

Fourteen countries out of the 27 have completed ratification so far.

The Lisbon Treaty replaces a more ambitious draft constitution that was rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005.


Doesn't it seem like every time the EU is subject to a popular election ... it loses?

Firm


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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 1:37:43 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Doesn't it seem like every time the EU is subject to a popular election ... it loses?



..only if you ignore all the times it wins.

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 1:50:04 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Doesn't it seem like every time the EU is subject to a popular election ... it loses?



..only if you ignore all the times it wins.


Out of the 14 countries which already ratified the treaty ... isn't Ireland the only one that asked the question of it's general population i.e. a referendum?

Firm


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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 2:11:19 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		The Irish can be difficult(full disclosure I am Irish and damm proud of it)

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 2:11:35 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Out of the 14 countries which already ratified the treaty ... isn't Ireland the only one that asked the question of it's general population i.e. a referendum?



.....being in Canada i haven't followed the story closely, so you may be right. However many, if not all, the EU countries had at least one referendum on joining the EU. Obviously all those in the EU now won those. Also, although some voted against, some countries had referenda on joining the Euro.
My thesis is not the opposite of "Doesn't it seem like every time the EU is subject to a popular election ... it loses?"......it's that the dichotomy is false. Sometimes the EU wins, sometimes it doesn't........and, arguably, isn't that a better indicator of democratic health than a situation where it always wins or always loses?

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 2:19:41 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		The EU constitution is what is getting stiff opposition. It failed in France and Britain and then they pulled it off the ballot in Belgium after polls show it was going to fail there and the idea was shelved.

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 2:21:50 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I'm pro-EU but I would have voted against this because it is a political fudge and the reconstituted treaty is inpenetratable.

What the politicians want to do is right, there needs to be some sort of constitution to streamline the working of the EU and have a more unified foreign policy. However, nation politicians don't want to democratize the EU and give it democratic legitimacy. Like politicians all over the world, they want their cake and eat it too and they shouldn't be allowed that.

The previous referendum votes in France and Holland that were against the constitution were not so much votes against the EU but as much against politicians wanting the best of all possible worlds while creating a democratic deficit for EU citizens.

Sooner or later national politicains are going to have to face reality and decide if they want a functioning EU (and they need one to face down the US, Japan, China and India), they are going to have to democratize the EU and give up a little national power to make that happen.

I also noticed that those people that wanted a no vote, made outrageous lies that they would have not been allowed to get away with in a national election. Of course the EU won't intervene, not even to defend itself against lies but leave it to the nations involved and the 'yes campaign' in Ireland was poorly led and totally ineffective despite having the majority of their parliament behind it. They failed to counter the outrageous lies.

That being said, in Britain nationalist politicians regularly make outrageous lies about the EU that are never effectively countered. However, you will find that these nationalist politicians don't want to leave the EU because they know in any trade negotiations with the US they would effectively be naked at the negotiating table. There will always be hypocritical little Englanders, little Irelanders and whatever etc.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/13/2008 2:31:07 PM >

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 2:32:59 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Lol,..."fuckin' Micks!"

Now there's a novel idea and something that the U.S. could learn a lesson from from our European cousins, actually "letting" The People vote on different proposals!

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 3:18:00 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Lol,..."fuckin' Micks!"



'Thing is, Popeye, the Irish are pro-European - they rejected the treaty as a matter of detail rather than principle.

The English, on the other hand, will never in a million years favour an EU treaty of any constitution. In the event they hold a referendum tomorrow in England, the yes campaign will be lucky to get 15% of the vote.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 6/13/2008 3:19:42 PM >

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 3:28:58 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The English, on the other hand, will never in a million years favour an EU treaty of any constitution. In the event they hold a referendum tomorrow in England, the yes campaign will be lucky to get 15% of the vote.


That's because the English are hypocrites, they want to ride on the back of their European neighbours when it comes to trade bargaining with the US but when it comes to foreign policy, they lick America's arse, even if it means fighting an illegal war.

The main reason why the English are so anti-European is because British politicians lie all the time about the EU. Not only that, the British media never gives a balanced view on the EU and bearly reports European news, not even European news that effects Britain, prefering to report US news that is irrelevent to Britain. Plus Murdoch's papers are completely anti-European because he wants Britain to be pro-American, probably because he is American and many European countries won't lket him control their media like he is allowed to control British media. The biggest laugh is the charge that the EU is anti-democratic but it is British politicians that want to keep it anti-democratic!!! The other laugh is that the Brits go on and on about the lack of democracy in Europe but the British state is probably the most undemocratic state in the EU!!!

Why doesn't Britain leave the EU? Because it knows in its heart of hearts it needs the EU and the EU doesn't need them. The English aren't so independent to walk away, they just bitch and whinge and complain and lie about the EU but are never ever constructive. If the English were so independent they would be independent. Actually I bet the English wouldn't vote to leave the EU, the pro-EU polls show Britain as consistly 66% for the EU. Don't forget, there might be 500,000 Poles in Britain but there are more than 1,000,000 Brits in various EU countries and they have relatives back home. Little England is a fantasy.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/13/2008 3:43:26 PM >

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 3:32:41 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

... I would have voted against this because it is a political fudge and the reconstituted treaty is inpenetratable.

What the politicians want to do is right, there needs to be some sort of constitution to streamline the working of the EU and have a more unified foreign policy. However, nation politicians don't want to democratize the EU and give it democratic legitimacy. Like politicians all over the world, they want their cake and eat it too and they shouldn't be allowed that.

The previous referendum votes in France and Holland that were against the constitution were not so much votes against the EU but as much against politicians wanting the best of all possible worlds while creating a democratic deficit for EU citizens.

Sooner or later national politicains are going to have to face reality and decide if they want a functioning EU (and they need one to face down the US, Japan, China and India), they are going to have to democratize the EU and give up a little national power to make that happen.


Damn meatcleaver ... we frigging AGREE about something?

Did hell freeze over?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I also noticed that those people that wanted a no vote, made outrageous lies that they would have not been allowed to get away with in a national election. Of course the EU won't intervene, not even to defend itself against lies but leave it to the nations involved and the 'yes campaign' in Ireland was poorly led and totally ineffective despite having the majority of their parliament behind it. They failed to counter the outrageous lies.

That being said, in Britain nationalist politicians regularly make outrageous lies about the EU that are never effectively countered. However, you will find that these nationalist politicians don't want to leave the EU because they know in any trade negotiations with the US they would effectively be naked at the negotiating table. There will always be hypocritical little Englanders, little Irelanders and whatever etc.


Nahhh, guess not. 

Firm


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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 3:32:50 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Lol,..."fuckin' Micks!"



'Thing is, Popeye, the Irish are pro-European - they rejected the treaty as a matter of detail rather than principle.

The English, on the other hand, will never in a million years favour an EU treaty of any constitution. In the event they hold a referendum tomorrow in England, the yes campaign will be lucky to get 15% of the vote.


NG, good for the English!
Sure, the Irish are "pro-European" as long as they're getting money from the E.U.!
And they've gotten *WAY* more money out of those clowns in proportion to their population! lol
"Keep it comming!"
Remember "The Celtic Tiger?"
The last time I was over they were building roads they didn't even need.
"Pardon me Sir, where does this raod go?"
"I dunno."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/13/2008 3:37:49 PM >

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 3:43:26 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I voted against the UK joining the EU and I was right.
Its an interfering expensive corrupt bureaucratic nanny state organisation that needs to be kicked into touch.

The UK should have joined with Canada and Australia and we would be unstoppable. lol
Cricket in the summer Ice Hockey in the winter and Fish and Chips all year round.

We may have a problem with Zensee, but nothing that carnt be handled.

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 3:47:56 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Speak for yourself

I don't agree

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 6/13/2008 3:50:30 PM >

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 3:49:05 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I voted against the UK joining the EU and I was right.
Its an interfering expensive corrupt bureaucratic nanny state organisation that needs to be kicked into touch.


While there is corruption in the EU, the vast majority of the money wasted, is not in Brussels but at national level and Britain is as guilty as anyone else. However, the EU budget isn't that big, its only big if you compare it to your income but not if you campare it to national budgets, its rather small.


quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
The UK should have joined with Canada and Australia and we would be unstoppable. lol
Cricket in the summer Ice Hockey in the winter and Fish and Chips all year round.

We may have a problem with Zensee, but nothing that carnt be handled.


Didn't  Canada toy with the idea of joining the Euro?

If Britain had joined the Euro you would be better off now seeks. My income, savings and investments are rocketing.

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 4:14:55 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Meat, the pro EU politicians never lie do they ? Oh except when England had a referendum in the 70`s and we got told the EU was just a trade agreement. You think its so wonderful, explain why the EU havent been able to provide an audit in the last 14 years. Its just an unaccountable old boys network for failed politicians.


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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 4:33:33 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Meat, a "smaller" budget eh?
So they'll be stealing "less?"
That's reassuring isn't it?
Oh, they're ok then!

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 4:36:35 PM   
PainSmith


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Status: offline 		Having spoken to a number of people here, the reason why the referendum failed was because most people didn't understand the treaty.

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 4:43:09 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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Status: offline 		Blame the government for not providing better info, at 200 pages they should have known it would be hard to follow every point.

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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 4:55:25 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Blame the government for not providing better info, at 200 pages they should have known it would be hard to follow every point.


Politesub, *200* pages?
And it's not a bureaucracy?
I see you blokes are having the same problems we are in Washington.
We have congressmen and senators who don't even read Bills before voting for them!

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