RE: The Dominant Submissive

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chellekitty -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 8:40:08 AM)
ok so, i belong to the group that did the class LA went to, although i did not make it, and i went back and looked at the class description that was posted on the list.. quote: This month [our presenter] will be sharing with us about a role dynamic she has observed in our community, the Dominant Submissive. Her insights into this misunderstood form of submission are truly enlightening. Join us for what will certainly be an eye-opening discussion. (snip) In this presentation, [she] will discuss aspects of one of the less stereotypical roles (that of Dominant Submissive). She hopes it leads to further discussions for stepping out of the box of the typical dom/sub/switch roles. and after reading LA's post, i have to wonder...did she not just attempt stuff people of this personality into another box, with just another label? i can give you references to two different people who know me very well and you ask them if i am dominant or submissive - personality type, not even getting into lifestyle, and you will get two completely different answers...and i can give you a third reference to someone who has witnessed me change between the two...but that is beside the point, i believe... quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I asked my question badly as well. I think I should have asked "What's the difference between a dom who doesn't WANT to deal with that sort of challenging attitude, and a dom who CAN'T deal with that sort of challenging attitude?" in my opinion, nothing...in both situations it is a question of compatibility...whether the dom wants to deal with the challenge attitude or can't deal with it, they are not going to deal with it - they are not compatible with the sub... chelle

wanderingstray -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 8:53:29 AM)
The sidelines view I have, it looks pretty obvious that dominant submissive women are the same ones who as little girls "let" their playmates make one or two decisions as a bribe to get them to play, which nobody wanted to play with them because they were always too bossy. Let's play the game I want to, the way I want, at my house in my room, and I'll do all the talking and tell you what to do, but you can wear the tiara and have the biggest piece of cake. The "stoop to conquer" approach is sly but it's not submission, is it? People bargain with what they value. In this case, she offers what she values, which is control, in exchange for your going along with how she wants you to be in control. "I'll let you be in charge if you let me be in charge of how you are in charge." huh?

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 9:15:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael deleted for the moment waits patiently....

mistoferin -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 9:18:27 AM)
I'm still stuck on why she thinks that being stable, competent and without a need to be micromanaged somehow comes out equalling dominance and a challenging attitude.

Missokyst -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 9:23:46 AM)
Em, this is a great discussion. Do you mind if I carry it over to my chat group? I am a dominant submissive, but I have never been a challenging one. It would be interesting to see what other perspectives on this might be. Andei

shivermetimbers -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 9:40:26 AM)
See statement in parentheses at the end of my first paragraph. Now, go cool off. Yes what you are saying is true. But so is what I was saying. If you don't know what I mean by a "good" general or private, I'd be glad to respond. For those who know to what I refer, they take into account the fact that a good general will find the best solution to a bad situation from the bottom of the rank and file. A good general takes into account those opinions. It doesn't lessen the general to do so, and it certaintly bestows honor on both the private and the general that though they are at different ends of the rank structure, each is equally important. I had originally overly explained this part of it, but I figured the majority of people would understood that, and I didn't want to talk down to anyone. Apparently I was wrong. I just knew someone was going to flame that analogy.

MstrTiger -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 10:37:22 AM)
I think being in that sort of situation would not interest me, I am generally a relaxed sort of person and being in the company of someone who would go out of their way to challenge me constantly would become very dull very quickly. I like the slaves I use to be independent thinking people, them wanting to do their own thing and being independently minded is not a problem for me. The idea of a sub who is seemingly going against what is in their own best interests to oppose their dom seams like quite a strange concept to me. It would seam almost like a sort of defence mechanism that the sub is employing to try and go against what it is that they ultimately want? If a slave was constantly opposing me I would assume they are not happy in the their own skin and move on to someone who is. I do so hate it when silly people produce a box all of their very own making and then demand that everyone one around them needs to get in it.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 10:49:54 AM)
Um wow! You guys are awesome with all of your replies. They really all deserve attention so I'm going to attempt to do that here in this post rather than clutter up with a bunch of smaller ones. quote: ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn I don't see myself as a dominant submissive, but nor am I someone who is incapable of saying: "That doesn't interest me. Thanks." I think it's definitely a good world in which NO ONE feels the pressure to perform. quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble Maybe one of these days the majority will try to teach positive BDSM messages instead of negative ones. The ironic thing is that I think she was trying to EMPOWER a lot of subs to not feel bad about being active smart opinionated people. But I think her method ended up DISempowering a lot more. quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 If two people need to "prove" themselves, the relationship is lacking trust, as well as depth. Her thesis collapses right there. Excellent point. Some people did point out that respecting and trusting eachother is something they just want to DEVELOP over time, and they disliked viewing it as something to be proved or challenged. quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Seems to me the speaker was talking about "the challenging submissive" rather than a dominant one. I have seen submissives with strong personalities. I don't necessarily consider that dominant, though. If a submissive in a D/s relationship has the dominant personality, then she's not really the submissive in the relationship, is she? :) I wouldn't say so. I know my ex used my love of costuming to garner attention because he didn't want a lot of it directly put on him. It let him observe without having to directly interact. Personality does not equate to orientation. But I think you're right that "challenging submissive" might have been a much better way and avoided a lot of initial annoyance. quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam DO. NOT. WANT. My girl is a dominant slave. she serves because she wants to serve. she is not a horse to be broken, a dog to be whipped or a SAM to be conquered. Yes I wondered about that also- would "dominant subs" put those people down as not "really dominant sub" because of that? quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr my pet is a very strong, intelligent woman, who has goals and knows what she wants in life I wouldnt have it any other way I have her submission because she loves and respects me, the best reasons there are Amazing how the simple things are what so many struggle against. quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress what i think you are taking issue with is that she is sharing her paradigm to the masses, right? well my thought here is that as consenting adults that make our own decisions, i think that folks can take what they want from any class, and leave the rest behind. Interestingly enough she let us know she was taking on a boy of her own. Seems her dynamic is changing to be more of an active top/dom, which I'm guessing is causing a lot of disruption in her previous mental mappings. I do think the issue was a lot of wording and implications. Why not say "It takes a particular type of dom who enjoys those direct challenges immediately" rather than "It takes a strong dom and most aren't up to it"? quote: ORIGINAL: shivermetimbers To me, a "dominant submissive" is just the equivalent of the role Fred MacMurray played in "The Caine Mutiny". He loved challenging authority, he loved stirring the pot, but when the time came to put up or shut up, he cowered, and destroyed the functioning unit. If you have never seen the movie, rent it, and you'll see the kind of person I envision the "dominant submissive" to be. Not a bad analogy at all, thanks. I'm not sure I would universalize it, but I got the feeling that is what happens more often than not. quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin That there are people imparting this in a 'class' based situation is sad but then you have to hope that people like yourself still question it and dont blindly follow it. If not, well in life there will always be people you disagree with and who live their life in a way that you dont if the differance is one that you cant live with you dont incorperate those people into your life. Thanks! It was one of those good classes at least where lots of people had already made up their minds- like I'm not convinced that "dominant submissive" means anything different from "SAM or brattish bottom" and I'm sure plenty are still convinced that slaves aren't allowed to voice opinions and think before obeying. But I also am pretty sure at least a handful of people actually got some good food for their noodle and were given good points to mentally munch on for a good while. quote: ORIGINAL: Devoura I wanted to thank both you and Albatross for your posts. It's not often that I get to read responses so insightful and yet so simply put regarding the dynamics of relationships. ~Dev Thanks Dev! quote: ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily I'm curious what you think the answer to that is. My answer would be "Dom that doesn't want to seems pretty sane to me. Dom that can't seems like not my type anyway." I never looked at myself as a 'challenge'; however I needed a particular type of Dominant man to submit to permanantly. Rather than get all irritated and try to break down what was wrong with the Doms, and make the reason I wasn't with someone some fault of the Doms, I realized that I bore easily with stupidity and I waited for the right one. I think my answer is that those who choose not to are simply being honest with their preferences and are secure in what they want- they may be compatible in a lot of ways, but not in HOW to get there. The ones who can't are being honest as well, but don't even have the option of choosing whether or not to try to get there. Did that make sense? I think that's what got to me also- that it clearly placed all responsibility on the dom side, which seems completely against what they were trying to say the dominant submissive is! quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist Sounds more like she is describing a vacillating switch with trust issues. I don't think it was switch, perhaps more bottom. And I will reiterate, I've nothing against strong or dominant personality slaves or subs- I know tons of them. But the fact that they can relax and still submit without needing conquering doesn't take away from that, and I think there are quite a few with trust issues and use this as a way to excuse them. quote: ORIGINAL: InsaenPleasures I am curious if the person teaching the class at any point made it clear that all of that was just her opinion? That others mileage may vary? I would certainly hope so. My problem with this is not so much the specific ideas taught in the class as much as a broader continuance on high school like drama in this lifestyle. In essence she is saying 'real Doms' should take on these 'dominant submissives' because thats how you prove your a real Dom and I think by extension, at least to me, saying non-dom submissives are not as worthy. You make great points and I think the heirarchy begins at the beginning- when people FIRST get into this and immediately say "This is so much better than what I had, so this is obviously so much better than what ANY of them have!" It's all downhill from there. She did state a few times that this was "just her perspective and you need to do what works best for you" she presented it in a very "this is what it is, I'm the teacher" style. quote: ORIGINAL: Evility I agree with much of what you wrote, but no surprise there. I've said this before and it is worth repeating - it takes an incredibly strong submissive to open up and submit totally. If you have to wrangle with her then she is not really submitting, at least that is how I see it. Something else I have always said and which also bears repeating is that dominants are often in 'damned if they do and damned if they don't' situations. See I don't believe the opposite- I don't think you have to be strong to submit fully. But I don't think it's NECESSARILY weak either. I think that's the point- choosing to submit is completely unrelated to how strong or weak someone is. It's WHERE that choice comes from that matters. And yes, doms are very much given the short stick in those terms, but then often unfairly given much larger sticks in other areas and they never seem to complain then. quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 I think of myself as a Dominant Submissive. My orientation is Submissive but my personality is dominant. I am vocal about my wants, needs and feelings and I know ultimately whether I stay and submit or leave is my decision. I really abhor those that feel a need to label. I cetainly dont need to be forced to submit. I chose it with the right Dominant. Sounds good to me. Where were you last night? quote: ORIGINAL: DominantJenny I require an emotionally strong, strong-willed partner, because I have to respect my partner or it starts to get ugly and then I get bored and go away. That said, I HATE being challenged (without a bloody good reason, that is), can't STAND SAMs (as a partner, they can make highly entertaining friends :P.) I wonder if the person who gave that presentation would understand the distinction I'm making... That was really the crux of it- why does being smart and strong NEED to exist with challenging? The teacher seemed to be unable to cut the tie between the two. quote: ORIGINAL: StormsSlave He doesn't need to defeat me...we're in this together. I think if someone had said that last night, it would have been golden. quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists mmmmmmm sounds like she made a nice little justification to inflate her ego at the expense of others... as well as inflate her Dominant's(if she has one or future one if she doesn't) ego at the expense of others. Sadly that is something that fluttered through my mind. I don't think she'd say that's what she was doing and I DID personally point out to her that using those words automatically is a diminutive to others and no one likes that. She didn't really know what to say to that. quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout I see it more of a "having your cake and eating it too" situation. The Dominant Submissive, as described, is just what it sounds like. Someone who wants to get the excitement and thrills of submission without actually being vulnerable. Well, wouldn't we all? It's very much like the lazy Dom/me who wants all the power and control but none of the responsibility. It's Ok to play at that, but as a full time way to conduct a relationship it won't work. IMO YES!!! I didn't go into this in my OP, but when describing the characteristics of a dominant sub, it was very much about being strong and dependable and I wondered if they have a hard time just relaxing and asking for help and allowing others to do things for them- which is a strength in itself. quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo I think the word "powerful" is a better word for a submissive or slave who can be self motivating and driven by the desire to serve. In fact, someone who is powerful is really the only person I can personally see having in my life -- when such a person kneels to me, they offer me their world, a world of true value. Powerful has very little to do with the ideas of submissive or dominant. Everyone has power but being powerful is knowing you have that power and be able and wiling to use it with full responsibility for doing so. That's my opinion on the matter. I think that works in a world which understands that Ds is about authority and not power. Until then though, I can't see you being able to use that in group communicating and not get challenged all the time. quote: ORIGINAL: PsyVamp If I have to convince someone they should serve me, then the two of us are not right for each other. I do think you are correct in your assumption that the speaker would scare some into believing slaves are weak or easily lead. I hope that the people who can be submissives or slaves will seek out more information and not take all her words as absolutes. Lady Jag I think some will at least. One of the downsides of that group is that they actually tend to nurture the more passive/protocol aspects of slavery, so it might not have been bad to get a dose of the other side, even if it was laid on a bit too thickly. quote: ORIGINAL: sambamanslilgirl however i don't think Daddy saw me as a challenge waiting to be conquered because He's attracted to my dominant personality (and so is the guy i'm dating). He likes the fact i enjoy doing a variety of activities which don't require Him telling me when, where and what must be done. i'm still submissive to Him yet there are times when i'm dominant and in control. That is something I asked her "When you get to know someone, do you think 'I really hope he's up to my challenge' or is it more that it's hard to find a good match for you and thus it BECOMES a challenge?" and she stridently stuck to the fact that SHE was a challenge and needed to be conquered. quote: ORIGINAL: sweetnurseBBW I do not think I could be the type of slave I am without being a strong willed, thinking person. The speaker seems as though she lives in a cookie cutter world. Sadly I think she is just misinforming people and confusing the new as well. I think she's starting to finally get beyond that somewhat. We'll see. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Wow. LA, my head would have just exploded at that class, and not in a good way. My subs/slaves need to know that the chain of command starts with ME. I get the final say, and the final responsibility. Why would I want someone who was constantly in my face about everything? That isn't a challenge, that's just someone who needs some other dominant. I am a word person, and I do love definitions, but the ones in this class sound like a bunch of bad ones... You were not the only one who would have had a hard time sitting still. quote: ORIGINAL: sweeetlips My desire someday is to cross paths with an experienced Master/Dom who will be willing to scoop me under his wing and with patience teach me, school me, demonstrate to me what it means to be a slave...............but if he does not respect me...........he will never touch me........... And what would you offer him? Also, do you have a fear of the period? quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra My malesub is strong willed and dominant to those outside of our relationship, but with me I inspire his submission and therefore he follows me as his Dominant. I don't have to "prove" anything, all I have to do is be myself. ~Lashra Well I know lots of people strong willed IN their relationship also, it's what their masters want and in no way compromises their submissive. That's what I was sort of hoping the class would focus on more. But agreed- proving is just a bad way to approach relationships IMO. quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty in my opinion, nothing...in both situations it is a question of compatibility...whether the dom wants to deal with the challenge attitude or can't deal with it, they are not going to deal with it - they are not compatible with the sub... chelle Exactly. If she'd kept it to "certain preferences for certain styles" I'd have been there with her all the way. It was when the "not enough" started flying around that it got bad. quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I'm still stuck on why she thinks that being stable, competent and without a need to be micromanaged somehow comes out equalling dominance and a challenging attitude. I think because they've made someone without any of those into a weak passive type. There's no mixing here. Someone pointed out to them a slave had more responsibilities and he hated micro managing. That's when she and others brought up the "obeying without thinking" bit. It felt very clear that there was a wall they couldn't see through. quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst Em, this is a great discussion. Do you mind if I carry it over to my chat group? I am a dominant submissive, but I have never been a challenging one. It would be interesting to see what other perspectives on this might be. Andei Sure, just put my name and source it :) quote: ORIGINAL: MstrTiger It would seam almost like a sort of defence mechanism that the sub is employing to try and go against what it is that they ultimately want? If a slave was constantly opposing me I would assume they are not happy in the their own skin and move on to someone who is. I do so hate it when silly people produce a box all of their very own making and then demand that everyone one around them needs to get in it. The idea I think is that once you've gotten them ensnared, you've got a prize that can't be matched and a devoted slave forever. Sigh.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 11:00:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave I tend to not hold a black and white view when it comes to orientation and personality types. I believe being Dom or submissive is the personality of the person. However, I tend to think there are other things that effect one self indentification of being sub or Dom. In many respects "some" (not all) DOMs are not naturally Dom in their personality, but their desire for control is the result of insecurity and fear. In many respects this holds true for "some" (not all) under the submissive label. Again, I stress for SOME, not ALL. What does this mean for a switch like me? Do I have double personalities? I am both a dominant and a submissive. To me personality has NOTHING to do with orientation. quote: I totally relate to this 120%, in fact it actually turns me off if anybody wants to quickly submit to me. Trust me that's not the way to hit my DOM button. Sort of has the opposite effect. Don't ask me why, just does. To make matters even worse, I tend to catch on quickly to somebody trying to get me to Dom their ass as well. I know somebody is going to be reading this and laughing thier ass off too. I understand someone who just wants to drop down to "any dude." But what about someone who just got to know you? Who over time realized this was a good match? No challenging, no conquering, just time together, shared experienced and mutual understanding? Would you find that too weak for you? quote: If somebody were to ask me to see my lighter. I might pull it out my pocket and say "See it" and put it back into my pocket. I will do this using humor. I'm twisted I know. I'm a bit of a smart ass. If you don't have a sense of humor trust me, I'm not the person you want to be hanging out with or involved with on a day to day basis. My family ruined me early on. I can't remember a time when you could safely ask the question "What are you reading?" without getting the smart ass answer of "A book" or asking "Can I have the remote?" and being told no. quote: A slave has set aside much of their self to serve a Master. Not in any of the long term fulfilling relationships I know. quote: Many (not all) Doms/Masters get to hold onto their fears and insecurities, these things in fact can become negatives in terms of being driving control forces. Basically where as a Dom/Master asserts control out of fear and insecurity. Ironic, the Dom/Master is control by fear and insecurity. While there's no denying this happens all the time, it doesn't work in the long term.

MrSpectacular -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 11:01:13 AM)
To the OP It is interesting also the concept of the dominant submissive. On the first read through I started to agree with some of statements being made - stable - doesn't need micro managing - oh joy! Why should they easily bend to another's will - at least initially. Then things started to change for me - making a great challenge, needing to be conquered these just seems the polar opposite of stable and micro managing. It just simply buys into the same stereotype that the speaker hopefully was trying to avoid. Her statement about "most dominants are not strong enough to handle the challenge of a dominant submissive" also further exacerbates what to me is one of the great issues with any D/s relationships - that is the concept of whether we are truly accepting of the lifestyle choice we have taken. The relationship should not be about a struggle for dare I say it - dominance - but two people who have a chosen lifestyle - exploring and enjoying that together. Call me simplistic if you will. N

AquaticSub -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 11:10:28 AM)
I agree with you. She seems to be describing subs/slaves/pets/etc like me, but I don't feel I'm a special challenge. Just like everyone else, I had to find the owner who was right for me and who I was right for. I really don't think anyone should to prove themselves by owning someone like me either. Thanks for the post!

DominantJenny -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 11:17:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wanderingstray The sidelines view I have, it looks pretty obvious that dominant submissive women are the same ones who as little girls "let" their playmates make one or two decisions as a bribe to get them to play, which nobody wanted to play with them because they were always too bossy. Let's play the game I want to, the way I want, at my house in my room, and I'll do all the talking and tell you what to do, but you can wear the tiara and have the biggest piece of cake. The "stoop to conquer" approach is sly but it's not submission, is it? People bargain with what they value. In this case, she offers what she values, which is control, in exchange for your going along with how she wants you to be in control. "I'll let you be in charge if you let me be in charge of how you are in charge." huh? IMO, this is the female equivalent of the classic "do me" male coughchoke submissive.

KnightofMists -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 11:40:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists so if she/he is not "Powerful"... what is she ..... "Powerless"! somehow it doesn't work for me. Is that I said above? I don't think so. Everyone has power but to be powerful you need to know how to use it and be willing and able to do so while accepting full responsibility. I do not believe that any human being is powerless perhaps not even after death. Power is not the same as dominant and submissive which were the terms the reported discussion wanted to use. well then if every Human being has power... which equates to being powerful it is rather pointless to say Powerful submissive... kind of like saying she is a female woman. but.. I do appreciate that what a person sees as powerful... will be different from person to person. or competent for that matter. I don't think it's a bad thing to say Powerful or Competent X... since when we appreciate that person's idea of what is Powerful or Competent means we have an increased understanding. between us. The there is nothing wrong with saying a person is a powerless or incompetent submissive... or Dominant for that matter Again it really say more about my values, principles and standards that does about person I may be labeling as such. Some may agree... and some may not. lastly just because you didn't say.. doesn't mean you don't imply it... If one person is seen as a Powerful submissive... it stands logically to reason that someone can also be seen as a powerless submissive... and I know some of both.

KnightofMists -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 11:51:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross My family ruined me early on. I can't remember a time when you could safely ask the question "What are you reading?" without getting the smart ass answer of "A book" or asking "Can I have the remote?" and being told no. Question.... "can I see the remote?" answer...."Sure!" hold it out of reach of them and let them look at it. end of high jack

peacelili -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 12:05:12 PM)
quote: the answer is not to build walls and decide all slaves are unthinking beings. But to recognize the difference between dynamics which come from a place of strength and those which come from a place of insecurity. i would have to agree on this thought...i am very new but have found that being a strong woman does not mean i am not submissive...i found this article about 'submissive alpha females' which i will share....altho the term alpha i have seen gets taken as meaning the first in a poly house hold, but that is not what the article is about...it its about strong women who are submissive and the balance they must find...it has helped me better define my submissive nature against my strenght...hope this is good info for some... http://www.takeninhand.com/node/489 lifting you on eagles wings lili

daddysprop247 -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 12:34:16 PM)
wow LA. like someone else commented, i couldn't have sat still through such a "class." what exactly was she trying to teach? ignorance? divisiveness? sigh...that's probably why my Master has no desire to be active in the bdsm side of the community. from what i gathered from the OP, it sounded like the presenter/speaker was just jumping on the currently popular trend of bashing/putting down personality submissives, while raising up the dominant-personality/assertive/independent/"lioness" type submissives as the almighty holy grail of valuable submission and all that any true and righteous Dominant would want. heck, people post such messages on lifestyle boards and groups everyday, she certainly wasn't saying anything new. what she likely doesn't realize is that she's creating a heck of a lot of confusion among newbies by stating such things as gospel, not to mention leaving a whole lot of submissives out in the cold, feeling like something's wrong with them and that they have no proper place in the lifestyle.

MsBlackheart -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 1:04:15 PM)
Whoa! I clicked on this thread because it reminded me of me, years ago, and something a friend and I were laughing about over lunch yesterday, how I sucked as a sub because I wanted to run the show and could never figure out why I couldn't find a dom who pleased me. I apologized to my ex after we split up for giving him so much hell, blaming him for not being dominant enough. God, what a bitch I must've been. If he'd been into that we might have been happy. So I can't imagine how someone can accept this label for themselves and still call themselves a submissive. Didn't we used to call it topping from the bottom?

cloudboy -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 1:10:26 PM)
Maybe you didn't learn anything, but its seems the speaker made you think. As you indicate, there are no definitive answers to these questions. BDSM often overlays a person --- but in the LT a partner has to always see the person first.

DominaTX -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 2:16:31 PM)
I'm sorry that I only just heard about this discussion. As someone who knows me "pseudo well" the original poster seemed to totally miss the mark of my presentation. Also, for someone who I embraced as a friend - her response seems very acerbic. A couple of folks who were at the lecture last night were quick to lob verbal assaults. Others who were there kept trying to explain to them what was happening and why the discussion was as it was, but some folks seem more intent on impressing others with their intelligence rather than opening their minds. For the folks that weren't there, the discussion was less on the Dominant Submissive and more on how we find labels overly important in our scene. I was asked to speak about the Dominant Submissive because I'd written an article on it once years ago. However, as I shift and change with my lifestyle, I've really come to find out that it's not about the label. And that, in fact, labels are pretty dangerous and stereotypical. I don't want to be pigeon holed, and I want to feel free to learn and grow in the scene. What I find so amazingly odd is that there were two people last night (and the original poster is one of them) who seem so quick to pull the trigger on someone who is trying to bring the scene back together rather than pull it apart. That our scene here in Austin has its issues has made being a part of a local bdsm scene tough at best. I think that the original poster knows the depth of my conviction that we all need to get together and play nice. I also think she knows that if I thought for one moment that what I was doing was destructive or harmful to our scene in any way, I'd pull the plug on it, myself. Her post here was very negative. We have enough negative for a lifetime. We have enough labels for a lifetime. Is there anyone left of the scene who doesn't want to have their opinion so badly that they'd rather tear us up than build us up? I am so disheartened at this point. I did speak about what I felt as a "dominant submissive" (which is not even a term I actually coined myself)... the characteristics are what define me (as I said in the disclaimer and as I pointed out to the original poster at the meeting). They were my opinions and I wasn't ascribing them to anyone else in the scene. I love the term one poster used here as the "challenging submissive" ... that would work as well. However, my main point - again - wasn't that I was trying to find yet another label for folks to use. It was that labels are not who we are. My last statement in the meeting was that I hope we all feel free to use all the colors in the paint set and that we don't let the views of others pigeonhole us. I don't typically post, but someone told me I should read what was going on here. I am glad it sparked discussion... just wish the original poster (who came in late to the discussion last night) had actually gotten the point. Love and peace...

ThundersCry -> RE: The Dominant Submissive (6/14/2008 2:24:22 PM)
Teachers....teach. Students learn something or they...don`t. A shame you actually had to come here and defend something you took the times and effort to speak on... Welcome...for what its...worth.

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