A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (Full Version)

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pinksugarsub -> A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 9:28:03 PM)

i have F/friends and family members in economic distress.
 
A/anyone have any suggestions for making a decent, secure living in the current economic climate?
 
Basically i'm concerned about 2 different types of P/pl: 
 
Young P/pl who haven't yet been able to find a career path that will be satisfying and pay enough for a decent standard of living.
 
P/pl my age W/who are unemployed, underemployed, or feeling insecure in T/their jobs.
 
In my case, the P/pl i care about are all bright and multi-talented, with a varierty of skill sets.
 
I'm looking for general advice on any sector of the economy Y/you feel is expanding and might offer T/them opportunities.
 
pinksugarsub
 
P.S.  Please also advise if Y/you feel any spedific area of the country is enjoying a booming economy, bucking the national trend.  i realise that S/some P/pl may have to relocate to find suitable employment.




Asherdelampyr -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 9:36:02 PM)

Tell them all to go find a call center to work in, preferable one that is customer service or technical support, they can move up from there

there seems to be at least one call center in almost every major city, they pay half-decent wages, and are almost always hiring anyone they can
Utah hasnt had a real unemployment rate to speak of in 5 years, and is quickly becoming Silicon Valley Mark II




chickpea -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 9:54:57 PM)

Become skilled in something that isn't easily exported..like manufacturing or computer technologies.  Nursing always needs people.  Pharmaceutical companies always do well in a poor economy.  Free trade is making port cities thrive. 

[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image]  I also recommend voting Democratic in the next presidential election, plus for all your local politicians.  Democrats are the way to fix the economy because they will bring the focus back from Iraq.  The Democrats, like Clinton did, will bring the focus to the lower and middle class which need uplifting as our government's funding is trashed and continues to make major cuts across the board in funding of local initiatives.  Also vote for not only a person with heart, but a smart guy who can come up with creative ways to fix things and reach his goals.

If you're stuck in a shitty career or with a crappy degree, move back with your parents if you can for the younger people.  The housing situation is trashed, and the rent situation is as well.  The disparity between average wages and cost of living is becoming vast (especially with the gas increases).  Oh yeah, take public transportation.




pinksugarsub -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 10:14:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chickpea

Become skilled in something that isn't easily exported..like manufacturing or computer technologies.  Nursing always needs people.  Pharmaceutical companies always do well in a poor economy.  Free trade is making port cities thrive. 

i know several IT P/pl who've suffered long-term unemployment.  Seems this sector of the market is especially bad as to age discrimination.
 
IMO, pharmacuteical companies really screw over their reps.  IMO, these are f**king horrid jobs.
 
i live in a 'port city' and it doesn't seem to be supporting our economy -- did you mean ocean ports?
 
Not E/evryone is in a position to go back to school for 4 years for a nursing degree; nor do T/theyhave the requisite interest in medicine.  i agree with you though; nursing is an excellent career path now.

[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image]  I also recommend voting Democratic in the next presidential election, plus for all your local politicians.  Democrats are the way to fix the economy because they will bring the focus back from Iraq. 

i don't feel quite as confident about this as you do.  i think even Dems fear being labelled 'soft on terrorism'.

The Democrats, like Clinton did, will bring the focus to the lower and middle class which need uplifting as our government's funding is trashed and continues to make major cuts across the board in funding of local initiatives. 

Huh?  Clinton brougt U/us NAFTA; probably the single biggest factor in the collapse or our local economy.

Also vote for not only a person with heart, but a smart guy who can come up with creative ways to fix things and reach his goals.

Any ideas?  Both McCain and Obama strike me as smart men.

If you're stuck in a shitty career or with a crappy degree, move back with your parents if you can for the younger people. 

Yea, this has happened in my family.  My brother just can't seem to get rid of his kids, LOL.  It's very stressful for all concerned, but it's unavoidable now.

The housing situation is trashed, and the rent situation is as well.  The disparity between average wages and cost of living is becoming vast (especially with the gas increases). 

Yes, that has happened here too.

Oh yeah, take public transportation.

Our city & county are nearing bankruptcy; public transportation is virtually a thing of the past here.

Thank you for your ideas.  i really appreciate them.
 
pinksugarsub





popeye1250 -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 10:33:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

i have F/friends and family members in economic distress.
 
A/anyone have any suggestions for making a decent, secure living in the current economic climate?
 
Basically i'm concerned about 2 different types of P/pl: 
 
Young P/pl who haven't yet been able to find a career path that will be satisfying and pay enough for a decent standard of living.
 
P/pl my age W/who are unemployed, underemployed, or feeling insecure in T/their jobs.
 
In my case, the P/pl i care about are all bright and multi-talented, with a varierty of skill sets.
 
I'm looking for general advice on any sector of the economy Y/you feel is expanding and might offer T/them opportunities.
 
pinksugarsub
 
P.S.  Please also advise if Y/you feel any spedific area of the country is enjoying a booming economy, bucking the national trend.  i realise that S/some P/pl may have to relocate to find suitable employment.


Well, if they're young there's always joining the military.
Plenty of good schooling and experience to be had there!
But, we really do need to start organising people and start to contact our congressmen and senators enmass and "Demand" not ask them to get us out of Nafta and Gatt and put an end to all this outsourcing!
We need to start making it real uncomfortable for them!
Those things alone are killing this country economically!
The People need to start making a LOT of noise about those things!
For my part I'm having bumperstickers printed up saying "DUMP NAFTA!"

Chickpea, "voting democratic?"
They said on the News yesterday that Obama is "in favor" of more "outsourcing!!!"
CNN




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 10:58:11 PM)

The economy sucks, but there's still plenty of white collar jobs.  Heck green collar is where I'd recommend looking most.  I'm not saying it's easy as pie for anyone, but I really don't think anyone really skilled, who really puts effort into it, can't find a decent steady job for at least a good chunk of time to take care of necessary living expenses.




Irishknight -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 11:07:37 PM)

Ummm ... chickpea, manufacturing jobs get outsourced all the time.  "Free trade" is sending them away.  For millions of Americans, free trade ain't free.




chickpea -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 11:45:59 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: chickpea

Become skilled in something that isn't easily exported..like manufacturing or computer technologies.  Nursing always needs people.  Pharmaceutical companies always do well in a poor economy.  Free trade is making port cities thrive. 

i know several IT P/pl who've suffered long-term unemployment.  Seems this sector of the market is especially bad as to age discrimination.

yea, me too. a know a woman who was doing really well in IT during the dot com boom.  then was out when it collapsed.  she got into construction when that boomed and was doing really well.  then that collapsed. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
IMO, pharmacuteical companies really screw over their reps.  IMO, these are f**king horrid jobs.
 


yea, my sister's friend is a biotech, they grind you.  but then again those working for Amgen are doing fantastic, no matter where they are in the totem pole.  Can you say stock options?  [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
i live in a 'port city' and it doesn't seem to be supporting our economy -- did you mean ocean ports?
 

yea, ocean ports.  out here in L.A. there's a city called San Pedro.  They are thinking of demolishing it to expand the Port of L.A.  it is crazy...  Plus they're retrofitting the ports with some of the latest technologies in recycling and energy....with billions of dollars worth of new equipment.  Like they're going to use hydrogen gas as a main source of power instead of diesel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Not E/evryone is in a position to go back to school for 4 years for a nursing degree; nor do T/theyhave the requisite interest in medicine.  i agree with you though; nursing is an excellent career path now.


yea, anything medically-related.   well, if you do what you like, you can be one of the best at it and be successful eventhough the rest of the economy is suffering.  Maybe this is a good time for the young ones especially to explore different career paths?

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image]  I also recommend voting Democratic in the next presidential election, plus for all your local politicians.  Democrats are the way to fix the economy because they will bring the focus back from Iraq. 

i don't feel quite as confident about this as you do.  i think even Dems fear being labelled 'soft on terrorism'.

The Democrats, like Clinton did, will bring the focus to the lower and middle class which need uplifting as our government's funding is trashed and continues to make major cuts across the board in funding of local initiatives. 

Huh?  Clinton brougt U/us NAFTA; probably the single biggest factor in the collapse or our local economy.


People at all levels of the economy thrived more under Clinton's watch.  Bush doesn't know how to grow our economy under a free competitive market.  *cough*  Let's not use the past 8 years as an example of how free trade failed, rather an example of some doo doo in the white house who didn't have the foresight into tweaking the American economy in order to compete more effectively on the world scale.  Bush, should've tapped into our strengths like corn for example.  Not only is this a great staple food, it's a fantastic fuel source.  Now that he didn't plan for it, growth of corn and other products is faltering.  For example, there is such a demand for barley wheat that the beer industry is suffering and jacking up 6-packs of beer massively.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Also vote for not only a person with heart, but a smart guy who can come up with creative ways to fix things and reach his goals.

Any ideas?  Both McCain and Obama strike me as smart men.


McCain isn't as smart as Obama, plus he has a temper and would burn bridges rather than make them.  Not good in a leader.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
If you're stuck in a shitty career or with a crappy degree, move back with your parents if you can for the younger people. 

Yea, this has happened in my family.  My brother just can't seem to get rid of his kids, LOL.  It's very stressful for all concerned, but it's unavoidable now.


yea, think the trend now is for recent college grads or others to move back into with mom and dad.
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
The housing situation is trashed, and the rent situation is as well.  The disparity between average wages and cost of living is becoming vast (especially with the gas increases). 

Yes, that has happened here too.


california, had the biggest spike, and the biggest fall.
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Oh yeah, take public transportation.

Our city & county are nearing bankruptcy; public transportation is virtually a thing of the past here.


L.A. people are less fortunate. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Thank you for your ideas.  i really appreciate them.
 
pinksugarsub


oh anytime [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m16.gif[/image]




chickpea -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/14/2008 11:48:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Ummm ... chickpea, manufacturing jobs get outsourced all the time.  "Free trade" is sending them away.  For millions of Americans, free trade ain't free.


nothing in life is free.




DMFParadox -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 12:00:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

A/anyone have any suggestions for making a decent, secure living in the current economic climate?
 
I'm looking for general advice on any sector of the economy Y/you feel is expanding and might offer T/them opportunities.
 


Yes.  Web design is BOOOOOOOOOOOOMINGGGGGG!!!!!

Nobody I know can keep up with the demand.  All kinds of web services; photography is another sector that you'll never be poor in if you're not stupid, because it's deeply tied into information services. 

Java.  Security analysts.  Content creation, even, if you're a fantastic writer with an understanding of good copy rules then there's a home for you.

However, do not learn bbscript and think you can be a web designer.  When you can read the Google AJAX API without a vomit-inducing headache, THEN you can call yourself a web designer.  Not before.

....

As for general advice, this is my general advice.

Don't get a job.

Seriously.  Don't.  Learn how to be the person that hires other people.

Learn how to run a business.  Learn basic marketing, basic tax/licensing laws, learn how to make a product that makes your neighbor's lives better.  Don't worry about the nation or the world, worry about your corner and how you can make it better.  That's where the real economy comes from, people who don't depend on corporations to tell them what they should do. 

When you struggle with that business, there will be many, many wonderful people who will do everything in their power to help you succeed.  I'm serious, sometimes it's brought tears to my eyes.

Hell, I even get out of traffic tickets by saying I'm an independent small business owner.  This country places a very high value on people like us, and for good reason. 




DMFParadox -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 12:13:43 AM)

Quick reply to the doubters for IT:
IT is a field where skill counts far more than politics.  Comparitively speaking.
The good IT guys may have lost 'jobs', but they didn't lose money.  They were snapped right back up, or went on to do it better than their former employers.
The lazy ones got their butts kicked.  And good riddance.  There was way too much fat, some of the 'experts' I've dealt with were just fvcking embarrasments.
And yes, there were a lot of them.  It looked maybe from the outside like the web bubble 'burst', but I swear to you it never did.  The money just stopped going to flamboyant fools.




Asherdelampyr -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 12:19:57 AM)

I agree with DMF here, I have never lost a job in IT without having a better one within the week, one with more pay, better benifits, everything




chickpea -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 12:22:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

Quick reply to the doubters for IT:
IT is a field where skill counts far more than politics.  Comparitively speaking.
The good IT guys may have lost 'jobs', but they didn't lose money.  They were snapped right back up, or went on to do it better than their former employers.
The lazy ones got their butts kicked.  And good riddance.  There was way too much fat, some of the 'experts' I've dealt with were just fvcking embarrasments.
And yes, there were a lot of them.  It looked maybe from the outside like the web bubble 'burst', but I swear to you it never did.  The money just stopped going to flamboyant fools.


yeah, politics is so stupid.  ass-kissing and garbage.  stick people in a rat race, and the scum that wants the rat race the most win.  what normal human would want to put up with that garbage? *shiver*  gotta be one of those my career is my life types...whether it's due to a fucked up life, or that you actually love and are competent at your profession. 

anyway, yea i think IT always changes and you guys have to keep with the latest technologies always...not like other fields like law or medicine where there's less change.  If you're really into it and constantly learn the latest, than you survive the fat trimming in our IT war U.S. vs. India




chickpea -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 12:35:17 AM)

They can always come to california next week and marry their more successful roomate.  




DMFParadox -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 12:56:44 AM)

I guess I whiffed over my own point.  There actually is some fat in IT right now; it's a good time to get your feet wet.   Anything webby, using and building upon the amazing tools that other people have already put out there.  For example, how many people use squidoo?  It's like a myspace that pays you.  (Sadly, I myself use myspace more than Squidoo.  But I'm working on it.) 

I kind of have a theory that for that money that ISN'T disappearing into the sucking black hole that is Iraq,  the rest of it is disappearing into the Web.  Not as in, 'swindled,' but as in, 'holy god damned WOW we live in a world with THIS???!!!???'... 'this' does, actually, cost money.  Contrary to appearance, Google's ultramassivehumongorurousy data centers that use up more power than any other company, anywhere, cost money.  Microsoft costs us money.  I cost you money.  It's worth it, but the price of bread is going up because there's a bit of a tilt going on right now towards IT investment.

So go where the money is.  Or better yet, figure out ways to use the web to make your business faster, smarter, and more competitive, and get the return on our society's investment.  (By hiring me. ^_^)




DomAviator -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 1:42:43 AM)

People will probably think that I am kidding about this - but the one profession that will never go away is Funeral Director. I have two buddies who have gone back to college to get an associates degree in Mortuary Science and they are making bank in what is essentially a part time job. (Figure a small home that does 40 cases a year is still doing almost a half a million gross with an average funeral cost in the USA of $12,000.) Unlike nursing, your "patients" wont give you lip or talk back to you or become combative, or sue you. Don't be grossed out by the "sticking needles in dead people" thing either - doctors, nurses, and paramedics (and in some states even EMTs) all stick needles in the dead - and nobody ever says "Ewwww youre a trauma surgeon you touch dead people" LOL Plus, funeral direction can never be outsourced as you cannot very well ship granny to India to be embalmed or wait for some guy to fly from bangladesh to make the removal from your home!

Another one thats kind of "out there" but a cash cow - crime scene clean up. A friend of mine who is a crime scene investigator actually started a hell of a lucrative side business doing this. After a crime there is a lot of stuff that needs to be cleaned up - body fluids, fingerprint powder, luminol, drug residues and chemicals, tear gas, pepper spray, explosive residues from flash bang grenades etc... She gets between $8,000 and $12,000 to clean up after a meth lab raid because of the hazardous chemicals and $1200 to $1800 to clean up after a simple "decided to paint the cieling with his brains" suicide - depending on how messy it was. All good money, billed to the state crime victims fund....

For someone with giant balls and a tiny brain - there is a mint to be made in commercial diving. You need to either join the Navy or to go to a school and spend about 6 months on the job as a "tender" earning dirt ($7 or $8 an hour) and eating shit (carry this, scrub that, etc) but once you "break out" as a diver you can make serious money... After he left the Navy my dad opened a commercial diving business, and I broke out with them as a teenager so I had the logbook and certs. Once when I was between flying gigs in a bad economy I went back to diving and made $30,000 in about six weeks. You dont have to be in the oil patch - divers inspect every dam or bridge in America, work in HazMat pools and industrial tanks, clear zebra mussles out of intakes and outflows, rerack fuel in nuclear reactors, and even uplug wastewater treatment plants... (yes thats right, diving in the sewage treatmant plant!) wherever there is water there is diving work - even bringing up SUV's that idiots put through the ice! Base hourly pay rates can seem kind of low, but when you add in hazard pay (contaminated water), penetration pay (being inside something that prevents a direct ascent to the surface) , welding pay, depth pay beyond 100 feet, etc you can make a nice pile of money fast. However, you WILL get hurt. The question is only when and how badly. Its to be expected when you are arc welding while submerged in water and using power tools by feel in the dark and under hyperbaric pressures. However, if you are reasonably careful you will only "get hurt" not become seriously injured. (like I barely knicked myself with a chainsaw once, and I had a brain fart and forgot to call for "power off" before I changed a welding rod (OUCH!), and I got bent (decompression sickness - which is several hours of screaming agony in a decompression chamber will the bubbles come out of your blood.) Its not safe but its fun, lucrative, and as close as you can come to being an astronaut without leaving earth. 

As for the IT thing - I agree in part on the web design. But, to make any money at that you really have to be in your own business. If you are in your own business you can make great money. However, as far as working for someone - the guys who do the flash and development of web and CD based training for my main business are in the Phillipines and they make $3 per hour. LOL Thats one of my sideline businesses - when they arent working on my stuff, they are working on stuff I bring in from outside clients. I bill $30 - $45 an hour depending on the type of work and its done by $3 an hour labor in the Phillipines. So, just make sure you are the American developer dealing with the client and not the poor schmuck working for a developer because thats easily outsourced.

Oh and one other thing, and I cant stress this enough - dont get excited and say "holy crap domaviator has these guys do the work for $3 and he pockets between $27 and $42 per hour" and run off and start a web design business! MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING! Ie learn how to do it YOURSELF and then hire someone else to do it for you. A surprising number of these foreign freelancers will fuck you if they think they can. Real world example, If you dont know any better you will pay an invoice for 17 hours to install osCommerce, however if you took the time to learn how to do it yourself you will be able to say "Bullshit, what did you do for the other 16 hours and 50 minutes?" Some of them are as crooked as a dogs hind leg and a stupid as a pile of turds. Another "real world example" I had a woman who did work on a training program, that I know took around 35 hours to do, turn in a time sheet for  206.5 hours. Now, I dont know what planet she was doing the work on - but on the third rock from the sun there are only 168 hours in a week (24x7) - so its pretty amazing that she managed to work 29.5 hours per day for a week straight, without taking time out to eat, sleep, shit, etc... If you are going to go into business for yourself, which is the very best thing you can do, make sure that you learn everything there is to know and that you as the owner can do each and every job in the place. One of the reasons I went to community college at night to become a licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic - I wasnt going to let a mechanic have me by the balls, I wasnt gonna be at ones mercy if he quits, and I wasnt going to sit back and let him take 3 days to do a 2 hour job. More than once I have walked out into the hangar to ask what the hold up is, heard an absolute bullshit excuse, and told a guy who didnt know that I had an A&P ticket in my pocket that he could take the rest of the week off without pay to think about his work ethic while I finished the job and signed it off for return to service. If they come back on Monday morning its amazing how much simpler everything is and how much more rapidly they work. [:D] If you open a business, make sure you can do every job in it from sweeping the floors on up... Don't even rely on your bookeeper - know how to get into Quickbooks and to have a look around before he or she has a chance to cook the books and to make them seem right.




pinksugarsub -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 4:32:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

i have F/friends and family members in economic distress.
 
A/anyone have any suggestions for making a decent, secure living in the current economic climate?
 
Basically i'm concerned about 2 different types of P/pl: 
 
Young P/pl who haven't yet been able to find a career path that will be satisfying and pay enough for a decent standard of living.
 
P/pl my age W/who are unemployed, underemployed, or feeling insecure in T/their jobs.
 
In my case, the P/pl i care about are all bright and multi-talented, with a varierty of skill sets.
 
I'm looking for general advice on any sector of the economy Y/you feel is expanding and might offer T/them opportunities.
 
pinksugarsub
 
P.S.  Please also advise if Y/you feel any spedific area of the country is enjoying a booming economy, bucking the national trend.  i realise that S/some P/pl may have to relocate to find suitable employment.


Well, if they're young there's always joining the military.
Plenty of good schooling and experience to be had there!
But, we really do need to start organising people and start to contact our congressmen and senators enmass and "Demand" not ask them to get us out of Nafta and Gatt and put an end to all this outsourcing!
We need to start making it real uncomfortable for them!
Those things alone are killing this country economically!
The People need to start making a LOT of noise about those things!
For my part I'm having bumperstickers printed up saying "DUMP NAFTA!"

Chickpea, "voting democratic?"
They said on the News yesterday that Obama is "in favor" of more "outsourcing!!!"
CNN


Yea, i agree with You there Popeye.  NAFTA has been a complete disaster for America.
 
Disappointed to hear about Obama's comments.  What kind of race is this anyway? 
 
Are McCain and Obama in a contest to see which one can piss off more P/PL?
 
If You get that bumper sticker Popeye, i am always happily willing to accept pressies.....LOL.
 
Thanks for the suggestion about joining the military.  That was very helpful.
 
pinksugarsub




SugarMyChurro -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 6:35:21 AM)

A lot of jobs depend on a persons age and location.

I know lots of good IT that got out of the field because of age and location. That industry wants young idiots that will basically do as they are told and work hellish hours. The other side of the great benefits of working at google - free time to work on personal projects, gym, free meals, free massages, sleeping areas, etc - is that they don't really want you to leave the building. That much is obvious.

It's not really different than being a first year out attorney at a big firm. You will make low six figures if you are good. They will also work you as if you had 2.5 full time jobs - as in you can expect to work 90-100 hours a week. That's a little under 15 hours every fucking day! But yes, you are banking many hours at an average of $20 an hour.

No thank you...




FirmhandKY -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 7:19:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

Yea, i agree with You there Popeye.  NAFTA has been a complete disaster for America.
 


I'm sorry, but how has NAFTA been "a complete disaster for America"?

This sounds like rhetoric, not fact.

Firm




Irishknight -> RE: A/anyone Have Any Vocational Advice? (6/15/2008 7:31:00 AM)

Firm, look at the number of jobs lost in this country that have not been replaced due to that piece of legislation.  The number was at 1.5 million only 2 years ago.   Jobs that averaged 13 dollars and hour have been replaced with minimum wage jobs.  The economy is not going into recession because of the war alone.  There is not as much money coming in from Joe Shmoe to keep it moving as it should be.   How much is it worth to save 50 cents on a bottle of ketchup?  1 million jobs?  2 million? 

As I understand, Canada lost a lot of jobs from this abysmal failure of legislation as well.    I don't have the numbers from canada but I have read that NAFTA is raping them as well.




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