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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 12:06:42 PM   
subtee


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~FR

~jumps from Popeye to Musicalboredom to Bounty~

Thank you and thank you.

I just heard that our courthouse (federal) and the hearings and proceedings to be conducted for the next period of unknown time will be held at one of the malls. Crazy!

You're good people ~hug~



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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 12:57:44 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti

~ Fast Reply ~

Does anyone know how New Orleans will be dealing with the current floodwaters once they reach there? All this water in the upper and middle MidWest has to go somewhere, and New Orleans is the last major city before the Mississippi dumps into the Gulf.

The lower Mississippi, below Cairo IL, is of significantly higher capacity than the upper Mississippi. Floods on the upper rarely cause any problems on the lower. Floods on the Ohio River are much more likely to result in very high water on the lower Mississippi.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 1:19:02 PM   
Irishknight


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I hope this does not turn out to be on of those rare occassions.   I know St Louis got more than its share earlier in the year.   A lot of towns around here got a good soaking too.  We made a trip to Iowa to get all of our stuff that was still in storage and came back to floods all over.  Of course, if we had not have made that trip, we would have lost all of that stuff to the flooding in Cedar Rapids.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 1:45:41 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I hope this does not turn out to be on of those rare occassions.   I know St Louis got more than its share earlier in the year.   A lot of towns around here got a good soaking too.  We made a trip to Iowa to get all of our stuff that was still in storage and came back to floods all over.  Of course, if we had not have made that trip, we would have lost all of that stuff to the flooding in Cedar Rapids.

I just did some checking and Cairo IL is expecting an Ohio river crest of 44.5ft. on the 20th. The towns levees are 60 feet tall so they should be fine.

Memphis reports some flooding of areas without levees.

So if there is more rain over the lower Mississippi NOLA could have some issues.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 2:04:28 PM   
sappatoti


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After I posed my question, I did some research to see if these floodwaters were a concern in New Orleans. Apparently they aren't. There are spillways just north of the city were excess water could be dumped out if needed. Also, the levees along the Mississippi weren't damaged during Katrina and are considered secure enough to hold the river within them.

Reference:
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/wwl061408mlriver.1da2e00.html


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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 2:05:56 PM   
Irishknight


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Thanks for the update, Ken.  Does anyone know if NOLA is expecting problems?  Are they making any preperations? 

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 2:25:28 PM   
Archer


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In the end I think it really came down to Iowa based on their experience didn't trust their levies, while NO based on their's did in many cases.

As for no transportation out of N.O. sorry but the famous pictures of the school bus yard filled with buses kinda kills the no transport available excuse (had the plan been more than a paper plan that sat on a shelf collecting dust that transportation was available and could have been used) I don't buy the the governor didn't release them excuse either, because according to my the information I have the Parish owned some 300 + school buses and another 300+ Regional Transit Authority buses. (based on media matters busting the 2,000 bus myth that was in the news right after the event. So the Governor didn't own the buses in NO to begin with and couldn't really stop them from being used. ( A 2003 document posted on the Louisiana Department of Education's website confirms that Orleans Parish used 324 "board owned" school buses and no "contractor owned" school buses.)

It wouldn't have gotten everyone out, but it would have reduced the numbers trapped greatly. 22,000 from the 97,000 estimated to have stayed. That's what close to a 25% reduction. The stress on resources would have been considerably less.



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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 2:56:42 PM   
MusicalBoredom


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I think on one of my silly rants somewhere I talked about how NO and likely most major cities in the US are not properly prepared to actually evacuate an entire city.  I'm sure there are paper plans and "what-ifs" all over the place but I suspect most were like when we hid under the desks in the grade school nuclear air-raid drills.  I hope most have gotten better.

As to NO flooding from the Mississippi, I think if should be safe from that side unless GWB sneaks back in and blows up another levee on the lake. (That was my attempt at humor regarding all the nutty conspiracy crap).  Seriously though, the swamps and flood plains surrounding the river tend to absorb a lot and are uninhabited.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 2:59:03 PM   
jlf1961


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I have mentioned the Army corp of engineers report on the levee system in and around New Orleans.  That report was part of an overall study of the entire midwestern levee system.

It was also a result of a request by the USGS concerning the impact of a major quake along the New Madrid fault, or any one of a dozen major faults associated with the Mississippi valley system.

What the CoE discovered was that, if the worst case scenario occured, the result would be the levees from Memphis to Wisconsin would melt, depending on the epicenter of the quake.  I use the word melt, because that is what it would look like, and the reason is the same as the intense damage in the San Francisco quake of 89, liquifaction, the ground under the levees would turn to water.

The CoE also discovered that the levees on the Mississippi have an annoying habit of failing from under neath, before being overtopped, again, due to the nature of the soil the levees are built on.

In a joint committee hearing, a congressman asked the representive of the CoE if there was anything that could be done to prevent either of these situations.

His answer was, "Yes congressman, we can either drain the Mississippi and all connecting rivers, or we can crisscross the entire Mississippi river valley from the Appalachan to the Rocky mountains with flood control canals and reservoirs." 

The congressman admited draining the rivers was impossible so he asked about the second plan.

"Well, we would have to build man made lakes in all the plains states from the canadian border to the gulf of mexico, link them all with canals, which would have the benifit of providing water to every state on a continued basis, and eliminate drought conditions where ever they may occur, at a cost of a trillion dollars."

The fact that it was impossible from an engineering standpoint was never mentioned.

This study was done in the 1980's after geologists spent some time going over the reports dealing with the earthquakes of the early 19th century.

The truth of the matter is that the more we try to control a river like the Mississippi, the more it is going to bite us in the ass.

I am not trying to sound uncaring, because my heart goes out to those people.  It is not their fault that the city planners decades ago decided to forget history and just build whereever. 

Like the fact that the wetlands that protected New Orleans from storm surge for hundreds of years were drained and developed from the mid 60's, the over development of the flood plain of the mississippi is the direct result of the stupidity of elected officials.

How can one blame the people displaced by flooding when the only thing they did was buy a house?


How many of those people were told they lived in a floodplain and stood a good chance of losing everything?

Real estate brokers arnt stupid.



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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 2:59:08 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

In the end I think it really came down to Iowa based on their experience didn't trust their levies, while NO based on their's did in many cases.

As for no transportation out of N.O. sorry but the famous pictures of the school bus yard filled with buses kinda kills the no transport available excuse (had the plan been more than a paper plan that sat on a shelf collecting dust that transportation was available and could have been used) I don't buy the the governor didn't release them excuse either, because according to my the information I have the Parish owned some 300 + school buses and another 300+ Regional Transit Authority buses. (based on media matters busting the 2,000 bus myth that was in the news right after the event. So the Governor didn't own the buses in NO to begin with and couldn't really stop them from being used. ( A 2003 document posted on the Louisiana Department of Education's website confirms that Orleans Parish used 324 "board owned" school buses and no "contractor owned" school buses.)

It wouldn't have gotten everyone out, but it would have reduced the numbers trapped greatly. 22,000 from the 97,000 estimated to have stayed. That's what close to a 25% reduction. The stress on resources would have been considerably less.


I really like that first statement.  "Based on their experience.... "  It makes sense that, having had their levees fail once, they knewthey either had to move or tread water.   Nola's levee breaking was a surprise to most folks.   

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 3:12:51 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Also, state and federal government help showed up the next day... they didn't wait a week and a half before responding.


Excuse me but 100's of Coast Guardsmen, National Guardsmen and State Troopers, Local Law Officers, Local Fire Fighters and EMT's and Local Linesman and County and Parish and City Roads Crews from four States responded before, during and immediately after. Many of them risking their lives and performing above and beyond the call of duty. Within 24 hours of the event, all 50 States and The Federal Government had men and women in the area, again many continuing to risk their lives.

Of course, local DEMOCRAT New Orleans politicians decided not to enforce the evacuation nor to order 100's of parish and city owned buses on the road to move people away. They, the NOLA pols, (though not the ones in Alabama, Mississipi and Florida) decided it would be easier to blame Washington and let useful idiots carry their water.   


< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 6/17/2008 3:25:34 PM >

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 3:40:05 PM   
thornhappy


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I heard a lot of bad info bantered about during the bad fires in San Diego last year, and I've heard bogus stuff about Katrina for years.

For some detail about the Fed and state LA response read here .  For details of the errors in news reporting in NOLA, read here.

Salon.com has a lot of reporting on Katrina; you can use their search box for more info. 

thornhappy

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 4:31:04 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I hope this does not turn out to be on of those rare occassions.   I know St Louis got more than its share earlier in the year.   A lot of towns around here got a good soaking too.  We made a trip to Iowa to get all of our stuff that was still in storage and came back to floods all over.  Of course, if we had not have made that trip, we would have lost all of that stuff to the flooding in Cedar Rapids.

I just did some checking and Cairo IL is expecting an Ohio river crest of 44.5ft. on the 20th. The towns levees are 60 feet tall so they should be fine.

Memphis reports some flooding of areas without levees.

So if there is more rain over the lower Mississippi NOLA could have some issues.


The areas above and below Memphis report flooding,,,, Memphis itself sits high up on a bluff, hence the nickname 'the Bluff City'...no sign of flooding here.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/17/2008 5:25:42 PM   
jlf1961


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Every city on the Mississippi with the exception of New Orleans was originanally built up on bluffs over looking the river, with nothing more than temporary warehouses along the river itself.

Then at somepoint, some guy who probably inheritated a bunch of money and waterfront property full of warehouses that got messed up everytime there was a big flood, took a vacation down south along the river.

He notices that there are a bunch of really fancy houses built along the river, but fails to note that every one of em are either built on stilts, or brick pillers that are 10 to 15 feet high.  He gets a real brainstorm.....

By the following year, said filthy rich dude has increased his bank account by tearing down warehouses and building multi story business buildings, hotels, and houses.

For the first few years, everything is just dandy, old rich dude has moved to california and is building houses on vacant land along this funky gully that runs all the way to San Francisco.  Meanwhile, a bad winter on the head waters of the mississippi send a shit load of extra water down the river and people wake up to find they now own houseboats.... that dont float.

Meanwhile rich guy finishes building a few hundred houses in the LA region, moves to the San Francisco area, notices a lot of unused land near the bay and buys it and builds a ton of houses there, eventually it becomes known as the marina district. 

Rich guy dies, leaves wads of money to a son, who moves to hawaii and builds tons of houses on the slopes of these really purdy mountains.   A few years later, one of da mountains starts leaking red hot liquid rock, burns up the houses and heads for the ocean where it creates more land.

Rich Guy III dont care bout them houses that got lavafied, he looking at all that new land being made on the edge of the island with dollar signs in his eyes.

The moral of the story is that Rich Guys with lots of extra land knows what everyone needs, a home.  He dont care where he builds these homes, as long as he makes a profit.

Oh yeah, Mr Rich guys dad was just a little fellow when the New Madrid quakes hit.  But when he growed up, he built all kinds of stuff and sold it to people moving west that had no clue what was under the ground.  How do you think he made his money??


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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/18/2008 8:19:53 AM   
Archer


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How many of those people were told they lived in a floodplain and stood a good chance of losing everything?

Real estate brokers arnt stupid.


UMMMMMM Except that it is part of every single real estate transaction that they reveal exactly that. That the home is located in either an A B C or V zone according to Floodplain maps.
A 100 year flood zone (Misnomer actually the flood risk is 1% chance in any given year)
B 500 year flood zone ( Misnomer actually the flood risk is 0.5% chance in any given year)
C Relatively Free from Flood Risk
V Hurricane 24 ft Surge Zone
The Law requires that it be disclosed. So the old I didn't know it was a flood zone excuse fails with most sales after about 1970.

As to your conjecture about how the buildings started being placed in the flood zones to begin with LOL rediculously unsupported by facts. People have built their homes in flood zones for centuries because the farm land in flood zones is very productive. Many of the cities are on the rivers because the transportation is easy. Folks bought and sold riverfront property and cities were built without thought of the floods in many cases. The idea of Build Bust Build has been the story overall for a long time. The levies would have been un nessisary had all the development been on the hills above. Instead of following nature man has tried to beat her with levies and pumps and all sorts of ways.


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