RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:38:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Exactly... thing is, you really can't know unless you really know them and their whole story. And we don't--we almost never understand another's existence, especially those outside of our geographical and social spheres. And so we assume.



This bears repeating. Only, I'm not as kind as subtee.

So, let me see... I know someone who knows someone who's on welfare. That someone is a scumbag. So all welfare recipients are scumbags. I know girls who get pregnant because they don't know how to keep their legs shut, 'cos they're all sluts. They're all single, and on welfare. Therefore, all single mothers on welfare don't know how to keep their legs shut and are lazy sluts.

[>:]




OmegaG -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:40:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Now there you go OmegaG..blaming the victim again... suppressing the poor masses....you must be a card carring memeber of the Myterious Big Business Hidden Government[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m9.gif[/image]... from now on known as MBBHG

Butch


What victim?  The one that gets more in food stamps then she ever spent on her food budget in her life and not enough assitance to pay rent and the electric bill, or the capitalist who helped the person gain the cash she needed and saved on her own grocery bill?

And before people bitch about people not getting enough food stamps to survive, this story is true.



subtee -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:41:08 PM)

I do understand. However, I don't know their individual circumstances. So I have to decide some things:  Are these girls lazy? Immoral? Stupid? Are they with conscious aforethought out to screw the government--you and me? Would they rather be pregnant and on welfare, all things being equal?

How do you feel about Ed McMahon losing his home? Do you blame him? Is he a victim?



OmegaG -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:42:16 PM)

FR

Yes he is, he's had it on the market for years and can't sell it because it's next to Britney Spear's house.



Irishknight -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:43:26 PM)

hammer, some couldn't see a wall if they were about to walk into it.  They  would then try to blame the man who built it.  Others of us would run into the same wall and say, "Damn.  Maybe I should quit staring at hot CM girls while I'm walking."



CyberDom08 -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:47:54 PM)

Bottom line, in America, more than any other country there is a chance for opportunity. I can work in a gas staion for minimum wage, or I can educate myself, work hard, save money and buy a gas station. Bill Gates could have sold his MSDOS to IBM for 50 million dollars and been rich. Instead he sold it one copy at a time for a couple hundred. America is a nation of riches but we give back to the rest of the world, foriegn aid may be based on politcs but we give back plenty. We are the most giving nation in the world.

As for the founding fathers, what a bunch of jerks and aristocratic, arrogant people they were. It is because we have strayed from the principals of the founding fathers that our country is in such trouble. George Washington, perfect, far from it but a great leader, it is not even debatable. He died in poverty didn't he???

The uneducated farmers were unable to govern themselves but given an opportunity to elect educated men, of similar political and moral beliefs, gave them power that few other citizens of the world had. The average Joe had no idea how to negotiate treaties with foriegn governments but he was able to support a candidate who had the same beliefs as he did about foriegn policy.

I think we are the greatest nation on earth, some of it is because we have an abundance of natural resources and a diverse population who has a desire to do better for themselves.

Don't worry about sterilizing americans, the abortion doctors are doing just fine.



Irishknight -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:53:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

This bears repeating. Only, I'm not as kind as subtee.

So, let me see... I know someone who knows someone who's on welfare. That someone is a scumbag. So all welfare recipients are scumbags. I know girls who get pregnant because they don't know how to keep their legs shut, 'cos they're all sluts. They're all single, and on welfare. Therefore, all single mothers on welfare don't know how to keep their legs shut and are lazy sluts.


You seem to be saying that because some of us admit that there are people like this out there on welfare that we are saying all people on welfare are like this.  
If we followed that line of thinking, then we surely must believe that all Austrians want to kill jews because Hitler did.  We must think that all Californians beat toddlers to death on roadsides because one fuckwad did.  We must think that all German men want to sleep with French women ...OK  that one might be true if you leave out the gay guys.
Pointing out the bad folks who are abusing the system isn't calling all who use the system bad people.  In fact, if we put a stop to all of those who abuse the system, then those who really need it would have access to more funds and assistance in getting back on their feet.



cjan -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:53:26 PM)

I feel like Oblio walking around in the Pointless Forest.

*sigh*

These "debates" are hopeless. We, in the U.S. are losing our Freedoms because, imo, we have become corrupted by an economic/political system whose end result is being played out to it's inevitable conclusion, just like the communist system was. Also, as a culture, we have become apathetic, selfish and stupid. We can't even see the chains that are being forged on us. Very slick.

Think I'll go check on the "how to eat pussy thread"



Irishknight -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:55:15 PM)

"pussy thread?"  Is that like a really long pubic hair?



kittinSol -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 12:58:11 PM)

I seem to be saying being the operative word here; it's unfortunate that these generalisations go on, don't you think?

What I will say, however, is that people fixating on welfare abusers and other such soft targets are missing out on the really big abusers of the system who merrily go about their way of screwing everybody else - including those that whinge about welfare recipients.

It's called demagogy. And our world relies immensely on it.



Irishknight -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 1:10:20 PM)

lol. I actually don't fixate on any group in particular except severe hotties.  I point out these things because they are there.  If we ignore the small bad stuff it becomes easier to ignore the big bad stuff.  Eventually, we become completely blind and can only spout political hate dogma and protest because someone was just allowed the right to get married to someone we don't like.



kittinSol -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 1:23:48 PM)

Yeah? Stella's thread has turned into a lamentation against the evils of welfare, yet I see little analysis on political lobbying, corporation law and exploitation of labour (what's the minimum wage again???). Glad you're able to see both sides of the coin. How about going after patrons of industry and their obscene bonuses and Cayman islands secret accounts, for a change, aye [;)] ?



Archer -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 1:26:59 PM)

And it demagogery is as evident in your own posts as anybody elses kittensol.

I'm not looking to blame a victim I'm looking to protect the lable of victim from being used and abused by everyone looking for an excuse for their own poor decisions. Life throws enough challanges at people without them contributing to their own chanes of misfortune.

There are folks who experience a real misfortune and there are those that build their own traps and then step in them.
Drugs, unprotected sex, and some other activities fall into the catagory of building your own traps.
Multi generation welfare is closer to finishing the traps their parents built and stepping into them.
I have all the sympathy in the world for folks who have misfortune that is not in really traceable to choices as the proximate cause.
I have less sympathy for folks who build their own traps and jump right into it.
Between those levels are where the vast majority of folks in need of help live, some misfortune some simply making stupid choices, The more their situation is caused by misfortune (Things really beyond their control) the more sympathy I have.
The more their situation is caused by a series of stupid decissions on thier part the less I have.

The moving of the victim goal line is as much a trick as anything else, some folks are just tired of the nothing is anybody's fault except when it's big bussiness or Government. And want just a little bit more of people admitting to their responsibility for their life situation and then asking for help and doing the work to get back off the dole as quickly as they can.



OmegaG -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 1:48:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yeah? Stella's thread has turned into a lamentation against the evils of welfare, yet I see little analysis on political lobbying, corporation law and exploitation of labour (what's the minimum wage again???). Glad you're able to see both sides of the coin. How about going after patrons of industry and their obscene bonuses and Cayman islands secret accounts, for a change, aye [;)] ?


I couldn't tell you as I haven't worked a job that pays minimum wage since I was 19.  Even when I was coming off welfare I secured a job that was well above minimum wage.

Welfare is an easy target because of the abuses, because not only are there many who recieve welfare that are exploiting the system but there are also many who recieve paychecks because of the numbers of people who recieve welfare.  A case worker for the Department of Social Services who actually worked to get his all of his clients into self supporting roles would find himself out a job, if all case workers were able to accomplish that, they'd all be out of work, of course, maybe they could take turns managing each others cases.

It's one of many self prepetuating social systems which, if they were to achive their original goal would make themselves obsolete.

Thomas Jefferson was a proponent of a minimalist government, until he became president and actually expanded his own role and created more cogs in the wheel.  Its hard to support an ideal when it means negating ones own role.



Irishknight -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 2:00:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yeah? Stella's thread has turned into a lamentation against the evils of welfare, yet I see little analysis on political lobbying, corporation law and exploitation of labour (what's the minimum wage again???). Glad you're able to see both sides of the coin. How about going after patrons of industry and their obscene bonuses and Cayman islands secret accounts, for a change, aye [;)] ?

because, I am talking about what everyone else is talking about.  I am not trying to make someone into something they aren't.  If you want to talk about corporate stuff then I'll be glad to.  Just because I was trying to converse relative to the line of the conversation doesn't make me less able to see things than you.  We were talking about the "victim" mentality and "blaming the victim."  Believe it or not, welfare can be related to that topic without us all hating everyone on welfare.  In fact, I didn't even mention welfare until you made a generalization that was way out of whack about how people were calling every woman on welfare a slut.



subtee -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 2:29:49 PM)

I’ve got to stop, but, against my better judgment, I want to explain my Sneetches, please. Somehow we view something counter to our own experience/existence and we decide it is better or worse. We seem to never be able to imagine ourselves in others’ circumstances except to imagine how we would do it better. While they have “none upon thars,” we would always have the “stars upon ours.” No matter what the circumstances.
 
It is all assumption. All of it. When making judgments about groups of people it is a decision made based on assumption-supposition-postulation-conjecture-best guess. It can be knee-jerk—and we all bring our own stuff with us everywhere we go—but it’s still a decision being made. I just want to try, with deliberation and thoughtful self-awareness, to not let the stars blind me to compassion and graciousness.
 
If I wouldn’t want to switch places, then I shouldn’t be judging them—this is how I feel.



Level -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 4:38:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Exactly... thing is, you really can't know unless you really know them and their whole story. And we don't--we almost never understand another's existence, especially those outside of our geographical and social spheres. And so we assume. Unkindly, it seems to me.

Scenario: You're behind a woman in the grocery line with a cart full of chips, soda, candy, etc. She pulls out food stamps. Where does your mind take you?




It depends on what her ass looks like. [:D]

Well shit, Irish beat me to the punch.



popeye1250 -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 6:29:11 PM)

"Low education?"
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Sir Richard Branson founder of Virgin Airlines and a few other companies a high school dropout?



ThundersCry -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 7:19:06 PM)

I second THAT!
 
=laughs=



Alumbrado -> RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? (6/17/2008 9:05:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

..... Blaming the victim first arose in the 1960's with the Moynihan Report, and further in the blistering attack on the liberal Democrat ideology by a black American William Ryan in his book entitled 'Blaming the victim'. But through since the 1960's it has managed to seep it's way right through into society via political parties, charities, cop-orations and the media, often so much so that it would appear from a certain perspective to be part of society, part of the national psyche. But is it really?...

Thoughts and comments please..



[sm=rofl.gif]

Please tell me no one is actually falling for this....



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