RE: Limits/No Limits (Full Version)

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MasterLark -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 6:27:54 PM)

I would like to nudge this discussion a little further since there seems to be some agreement on limits.

What about the Master's role in intentionally pushing limits as part of learning and growing as a slave, to expand boundaries to do more?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 6:31:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark
What about the Master's role in intentionally pushing limits as part of learning and growing as a slave, to expand boundaries to do more?

Sigh again the reason I don't use the term "soft limits."

If it's a limit, it's not pushed, it's not prodded. It's a limit.

I have a limit on always using condoms for sex. That's NOT getting pushed.

Anything else is open depending on context.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 6:33:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD

i appreciate all of Your feedback, it does help clarify things! ok say that You are in a collared relationship with a submissive, and watersports really turn You on. She hasn't told You that water sports are a limit and says that she defers to Your judgement when it comes to setting limits. Do you then in a scene pee on her? Not a real life situation but the only example that i could come up with to demonstrate my question. How do You introduce new things (by talking, planning or just trying them out?) i apologize for the color of the original post (thought it was cute)

Depends on the situation and relationship. Each way has its good and bad sides. Sometimes its better just to do it and sometimes its better to talk about it. No one way.



KnightofMists -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 6:41:31 PM)

I don't push limits.....


I and the person I play with Accept Challenges to achieve a Power Enhancing Experience! Which facilitates growth and development of our selves as individuals and as a relationship.



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 6:43:05 PM)

I believe that your belief is unrealistic. Everyone has limits, no matter who they are. Even nilla people have limits (of an unrelated to BDSM nature). We all have things in life we are simply unwilling to do, period, and these things usually have reasons behind them. Perhaps the reason is emotional, perhaps it has to do with our personal morals and values, perhaps it has to do with a physical limitation, as Lucky mentioned with diabetics.

The reason why you may not see a slave with "limits" persay, is because he/she met someone who has the same moral, emotional and physical limits as s/he does, and therefore they are less of an issue. But they are still limits, technically, and ones that the slave follows.



starshineowned -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 7:00:18 PM)

quote:

do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits


Greetings..~smiles~

There are just so many ways to look upon this it's not even remotely funny. Wether they are a submissive person or a slave..I would hope that if they are addressing one as their Master/Mistress that they have established a pretty strong bond of trust. As that trust builds over time..whatever "limits" they may of had previous to becoming Owned that were Not the same as their Owners should be regularly visited no matter if it was a "soft-limit-never tried or tried and jury is still out" or "hard-limits-tried and hated or just can't even stomach the thought of". Without these limits challenged in some form or fashion to me stiffles potential growth.

Being a submissive person will usually allow for more negotiation in the relationship in many area's.
Being a slave you haven't the right to expect that and IMHO wouldn't want it. If you did, then don't become a slave. If you are afforded some input on limit challenges then count it as an allowance from your Owner.

Everyone has limits, fears, challenges, preferrences, whatever you want to call them. People need to really take time to try and find themselves first and then search for a close match. Neither Master nor I are interested in scat..we both knew this as a limit for us both before ever laying eyes on one another, as a submissive person I would continue to keep that limit even if Master changed His mind on it. As a slave, that right is now gone for me. It's just that simple. Know who your giving yourself over to, and what you say you are.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin



SirSix72 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 7:55:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


If it's a limit, it's not pushed, it's not prodded. It's a limit.

I have a limit on always using condoms for sex. That's NOT getting pushed.

Anything else is open depending on context.


Limit pushing is groing emotionally.....safe sex isnt a limit...this falls under SSC........there are terms for hard limits that arent meant to be prodded or pushed as hard as others but never the less limits are emotional bumps in the road that are meant to be over come.....would you say that if you had a fear of height that this would be a limit? I used to be afraid of heights and I overcame this with time...........there is a huge study about people and phobias that they have and the psycho-therepist modifies thier behaviour through facing thier fears...this is called emotional growth


Master Six



perverseangelic -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 8:43:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prunesquallor
trust in the dominant, it's stating a fact of life in order to be healthy.


I normally agree with many things you say, but here I must differ. I believe that someone who is a slave is not entitled to any limits whatever. A slave gives herself body and soul to her Master.

Of course, before she becomes a slave, she should know her potential Master well enough to know that his values are hers, and that she can give herself in this way without putting herself in danger.



I agree with the second bit your saying, but I think the first bit is a dangerous way to look at things.

I think EVERYONE needs to feel ok with saying "I will not kill or abuse this non-consenting person because you tell me to." and "I will not kill myself because you tell me to."

To say that a slave must give up that right is very very dangerous to me. No matter how well one knows one's partner, if one says one will do ANYTHING one is agreeing to commit murder on that person's behalf. Sure, one may know that that person will never ask to commit murder, but to remove the ability to say it is very dangerous to me.

Of course, I know that no one is actually forced to commit murder, that because this is consensual slavery the individual can always walk away. However, I think it is bad to cultivate an attidute that states, however subtly, that if one chooses to not commit suicide at one's owner's request, one is failing.



perverseangelic -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 8:49:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

Limit pushing is groing emotionally.....safe sex isnt a limit...this falls under SSC........there are terms for hard limits that arent meant to be prodded or pushed as hard as others but never the less limits are emotional bumps in the road that are meant to be over come.....would you say that if you had a fear of height that this would be a limit? I used to be afraid of heights and I overcame this with time...........there is a huge study about people and phobias that they have and the psycho-therepist modifies thier behaviour through facing thier fears...this is called emotional growth
Master Six



I disagree when you say safe sex isn't a limit. It limits/modifies the behaviors which a dominant person can request of her/his submissive person. As such, it's a limit. Anything which limits behavior, to me, is a limit. :)

I define limits like Emerald does, though. They are things which I absolutely, without fail cannot and will not do. Period. No pushing, no testing, no stretching. I cannot or will not do them for moral or physical reasons. It's hard for me to understand talk about "soft" limits, because for me they aren't limits, they're preferences. Strong preferences, perhaps,but subject to change as my dominant partner wants. (assuming he wants to change them).

Phobias--I'd put them in the "very strongly dislike" category. I think it's unwise for someone to mess with them unless he/she knows what they are doing, but unless, for me, they're physically or psychologically damaging and the person in question refuses to have them challenged, they aren't limits in my book.

For example. I have a phobia of getting water in my ears. However, it's a phobia with a physical backing. I have serious ear problems and getting excess water in them can cause infections and other nastyness. Having water poured in my ears is a limit for me. No matter who asks me to do it, I refuse to do it. It's a bizare one, I know, but it's a limit because to have that act done would do me serious damage, physically. The phobia bit? I'm working on overcoming the fear of having liquids near my ears. So, I can see working on that kind of stuff.

So, no. I don't think limits should ever be pushed or tested. But I -do- think individuals should work together to find out what really is a limit and what is a preference.



SirSix72 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 9:07:38 PM)

I still cant see safe sex as a limit....wouldnt it be insane to no have safe sex? This falls into SSC safe, Sane and Consentual....I play with alot of different people and safe sex is sane to me not al imit...if someone in the group yelled "hey lets take the condoms off" how long would it take for the group involved in the play to throw this idiot out?

Master Six



KnightofMists -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 10:15:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

I still cant see safe sex as a limit....wouldnt it be insane to no have safe sex? This falls into SSC safe, Sane and Consentual....I play with alot of different people and safe sex is sane to me not al imit...if someone in the group yelled "hey lets take the condoms off" how long would it take for the group involved in the play to throw this idiot out?

Master Six



mmmmmmmmmmm safe sex... that's sex with a condom right???!!! mmmm dang... I haven't put one of those in god I don't how long ago......... mmmmmm that must mean I am Insane!!! Oh yeah btw, yes I do have multiple partners for the nasty deed. Actually, it very simple for me... if I consider needing a condom to protect myself with someone... then frankly I don't have enough trust in them and will not involve myself sexually in the first place. Yes it is sane to have a safe sex with individuals that you don't feel enough trust with, but then that is a limit, For you just limited your behavior... the reasons irrelevant... in your case you just consider it sane to limit your behaviour/choices... myself, I limit myself by requiring a set level of trust before engaging in such activity without a condom, otherwise I don't even bother. And well you still can't see it, then you might want to take off the shades, even thou are pretty cool looking.




SirSix72 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 10:34:15 PM)

I play with many people and I find it responsible behavior to approach any scene with safe sex in mind...if you have found a group to play with where everyone has papers or everyone involved has built the trust level to where a condom isnt needed then my hats off to you.......but never the less where I work there are lots to play with and I would never consider not to have safe sex


Master Six



perverseangelic -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/3/2005 11:38:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

I still cant see safe sex as a limit....wouldnt it be insane to no have safe sex? This falls into SSC safe, Sane and Consentual....I play with alot of different people and safe sex is sane to me not al imit...if someone in the group yelled "hey lets take the condoms off" how long would it take for the group involved in the play to throw this idiot out?

Master Six



It's limiting your behavior isn't it? That is, it is something you require, and that you will not violate, ever. That's a limit to me.

Look at it this way. Say your submissive person stated she didn't want you to wear a condom, you would insist on wearing one, period. Yes, you have this perogative because you're the dominant person, but it's still an inviolable rule for you (I'm gathering.) It is a limit for you, because having unsafe sex is something you -will not- do.

To me, it doesn't matter if it's logical, or if it would be insane to violate the limit. It's still a limit. I will not commit murder. One could say that it'd be insane (and most definatly not SSC) to commit murder, and I'd agree, but my unwillingness to murder on my partner's behest is still a limit.




Evanesce -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 6:33:44 AM)

quote:

there is a huge study about people and phobias that they have and the psycho-therepist modifies thier behaviour through facing thier fears...this is called emotional growth


Yes, but there are precious few dominants out there who are qualified to modify their slave's behavior in that particular manner.

I am a slave, and I have limits. HIS limits. He knows there are things that are major hot spots for me, and He has a self-imposed limit of not causing me emotional trauma. Therefore, those hot spots will not be touched.

It's all a matter of knowing the rules. As Soulhuntre said, once he defines the rules, the choice is to accept those rules or go elsewhere. His rules. His limits. But they're still limits.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 7:09:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
Limit pushing is groing emotionally

Not for me. That's called living life.

quote:

.....safe sex isnt a limit

Weren't you the one praising me for having this as a limit just the other day? It's what started that whole "lil one" debate.

quote:

...this falls under SSC

According to whose manual? I don't do "SSC"

quote:

there are terms for hard limits that arent meant to be prodded or pushed as hard as others but never the less limits are emotional bumps in the road that are meant to be over come

That's a fairly narrow definition of limits, and hardly a common one.

Many people in the scene DONT push limits you know, they are amazingly enough happy with how they are and what they do and don't feel some need to push.

quote:

would you say that if you had a fear of height that this would be a limit?

Possibly. But that doesn't mean that condoms with sex isn't ALSO a limit.
quote:


I used to be afraid of heights and I overcame this with time...........there is a huge study about people and phobias that they have and the psycho-therepist modifies thier behaviour through facing thier fears...this is called emotional growth

Yes, it's called emotional growth- not limits.



Webmaster60 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 8:30:00 AM)

quote:

Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits. If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them? Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance? i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?). Thank You for Your input.[:D]


"My" 2 cents...
I want to know up front what a girls limits are. Understand... I believe (generally speaking) that a limit is a "temporary" obstacle that, with work, will be overcome.
I have had, and only known, ONE "no-limits" slave, and I valued her deeply.

MOST people have limits. Whether or not I push them depends on "why" its a limit. I tend to treat limits that are emotional in origin (abuse etc) MUCH more carefully tham those that a girl "just doesn't like". I evaluate each limit on its own merrit, and choose to puch or overcome them as appropriate. If its something she just doesn't like, she'll get over it, if I like it, or want it.

I require only 3 things from a slave. Naked, Open, Unashamed, and total "willingness" to obey. Most limits are only there because a girl is embarrassed, or self consious, Or feels its degrading. These things can be overcome. Ideally, ALL limits should be worked till overcome. Why? Anything that limits us as a person, does just that. Now keep in mind, certain things like children are beyond the normal expectation of this discussion. But for instance anal sex.

A girl may have been raped anally or something. Now this means that she is of course very sensitive to the act. In order for the bond to be effective between Master and slave, there needs to be an absolute trust. THis trust is diminished as long as this barrier exists. I'm not saying that this anal barrier needs to be revisited daily or even periodically. But it needs to be overcome. Its vital that the Master excercise the due patience, and understanding required to make this come to pass.

::shrugs:: my 2 cents.




Webmaster60 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 8:32:54 AM)

quote:

Limits don't have to do with trust, they have to do with reality. Even if slaves say they have "no limits" what they really mean is "any limits I have are taken care of by what the masters limits are."


Agree and disagree

quote:

Any dom who gets huffy about slave having limits and thus lacking some sort of trust is obviously not understand the reality of the situation. A slave that has a limit of eating sugar when she's diabetic isn't lacking trust in the dominant, it's stating a fact of life in order to be healthy.


As you state... The origin of the limit determines how it manifests itself.. Some ARE born of trust (or lack thereof). Some are just reality as you've said.

A stupid Master is one that fails to see or understand the difference.



Soulhuntre -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 8:33:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
I still cant see safe sex as a limit....wouldnt it be insane to no have safe sex? This falls into SSC safe, Sane and Consentual....I play with alot of different people and safe sex is sane to me not al imit...if someone in the group yelled "hey lets take the condoms off" how long would it take for the group involved in the play to throw this idiot out?


Limits don't cease to be limits just because you agree with the reasoning behind them. Additionally the term SSC (thankfully) is not considered the final arbiter of all things in life by many :)

Last but not least while it is certainly higher risk to have unprotected sex it is far fromt he instant death / suicide level risk so many people today seem to think it is. So is it more dangerou to have unprotected sex? Somewhat. Is it clearly insane? I don't think so.



Soulhuntre -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 8:35:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I think EVERYONE needs to feel ok with saying "I will not kill or abuse this non-consenting person because you tell me to." and "I will not kill myself because you tell me to."


Why does "everyone" need to be OK with that? Does the feelings of, say, my girls really matter to you that deeply in your life? Why would the standards of others be so important to you?



Webmaster60 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 8:37:40 AM)

quote:

NO ONE that I have ever met has zero limits, and I believe to be willing to do anything is extremely unhealthy. To me, one that has no limits would be willing to dismember another human at the dirrection of his/her domiant partner. I don't see a person like this as one who has submitted to another, and I do -not- think this is a state to be aspired to.


I'll agree that they are RARE, but they do exist. But please keep in mind.. a No Limits slave concept should ALSO be coupled with the understanding that their Master will not have them do something that would cause them harm (to an extreme degree) or dismemberment. One would not be WITH someone (hopefully) that would do so.

But to say a no limits slave is somehow unhealthy is unfair. She has just given that TOTAL trust to her Master and HOPEFULLY he is deserving OF such trust.



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